Judicial independence compromised in various parts of the world, observes former English law society President David Greene…excerpts from the interview of DAVID GREENE made by ABHISH K. BOSE
Senior lawyer David Greene specalises in commercial litigation including competition claims and claims on behalf of shareholders, and is Head of the Class Action and Finance Litigation department. He was articled with Edwin Coe and qualified in 1980, becoming a Partner in 1984 and Senior Partner in April 2011. David served as the 176th president of the English law society, the independent professional body of solicitors in England and Wales. In this role, he represents the organisation at home and abroad, and is Chair of their Council. David won the Law Society’s presidential election for 2018 and was appointed as Deputy Vice President in July 2018, becoming Vice President in 2019 and President in 2020-1. He has developed a strong following in contentious competition work being involved in cases in front of the Competition Appeal Tribunal (CAT), High Court and Competition Commission. He has for many years advised sovereign states on disputes in international tribunals and particularly specialises in work involving governments in sub-Saharan Africa.
David was appointed by the Lord Chancellor to the Civil Procedure Rules Committee in 1997. He was then appointed in 2002 as a member of the Civil Justice Council. He is the author of ‘Civil Procedure Rules‘, an associate editor of ‘Civil Practice Manual‘, on the editorial board of Butterworths’ ‘The Civil Court Practice‘ (‘the Green Book‘), a contributor to the Law Society’s ‘Civil Litigation Manual‘, and the author of two titles for Atkins Court Forms.David has worked on numerous high profile cases. In an interview with Asian Lite’s Abhish K. Bose David Greene, one of the top lawyers in UK expresses his views on the necessity to maintain judicial independence and the allegations being levelled against him that he has misled a judge in connection with a case.
Excerpts from the interview
Abhish K. Bose : Could you explain how you were drawn into the legal profession? How did you begin your practice as a lawyer, and what were the experiences that shaped you as a person handling major cases?
David Greene : I decided I wanted to be a lawyer in my early teens although I was also attracted to politics from the age of 16 and became an active politician until my 30s. The law career then took over but in the work I did in litigating human rights and the rule of law and in advising governments on civil justice I did my politics through my practice. Major cases are much like any other. As a claimant lawyer never make assumptions about any party’s conduct or rationale or the court’s view of it, always seek to prove your case, concentrate on the issues and concede where necessary, do right by your client and fight their corner.
Abhish K. Bose : What should be the primary legal parameter a judge should keep in mind while pronouncing the verdicts? Is it the execution of the legal dictum in letter and spirit, or a balanced view which considers all aspects concerning the case?
David Greene : The common law that we share is a living animal growing and changing with changes in social norms and society which I have seen over my many years in practice but it is important that the law has certainty and that is an important aim of any judge to follow precedent or rationalise change and development. We would not have lawyers if there were not at least two views of the combination of facts and law. Judges are human and whether it be conscious or unconscious bias they will bring their own life experiences to the court but the judge’s job as the neutral between two adversaries is to apply the law properly to the facts of a case.
Abhish K. Bose : It is often alleged that those belonging to ‘other’ nationalities and racial backgrounds encounter discrimination in the English courts. How serious is this discrimination? You were the president of the English Law Society. As the president of the Law Society, what proactive measures have you taken to bridge this discrimination at the work place?
David Greene : Members of minority groups face discrimination often on a daily basis. I have very rarely seen racial bias in the courts.
I believe it was prevalent when I first started practice but these days with a Government introducing controversial legislation on, for instance, immigration that challenges the rule of law, the courts step out to ensure access to justice and fairness and protect the rule of law.
Abhish K. Bose : It is learnt that you were on the move to open law offices in India of the English law firms after the Bar Council of India decided to open up the Indian legal market for foreign firms. Could you explain the transition that this could have brought about in the Indian legal system?
David Greene : India has a huge legal talent resource and as India becomes a major player in global trade it is important to use that talent in promoting that trade and the law that supports it. As India opens up globally so it needs to open up international practice of law.
In those jurisdictions that have opened to global firms there have only been benefits; it greatly enhances the local market’s ability to deal with global legal issues;it enhances local talent; it retains legal work within the jurisdiction; it increases employment in law. There are challenges but India with its great talent has the ability to meet them.
Abhish K. Bose : In the course of opening law firms in India, how far will you give chances (opportunities?) to the Indian lawyers and law students?
David Greene : Absolutely essential. The opening up of London to foreign based law firms and the subsequent growth in law firms from across the Globe opening in London gave rise to a huge growth in employment of local lawyers and staff. In London many ‘foreign’ firms have a majority of partners who are qualified only in England. One of the purposes of establishing in any jurisdiction is to enjoin the local bar and work with it. Failure to do so will see the project fail.
Abhish K. Bose : At a juncture of political tensions and allegations that the judiciary is compromising its independence (autonomy?) in India, could you propose some measures that would reinvigorate its relevance?
David Greene : Unfortunately judicial independence, which is an essential pillar of democracy, is challenged in many jurisdictions across the world. India is not alone in that. It is a matter of politics that governments seek to achieve their aims and when those conflict with the law and the judiciary and the rule of law stand in the way of what governments regard as legitimate there is conflict. This often turns around arguments over embedded constitutional and human rights. Governments seek to control the judiciary either by selection or direct influence; bribery or public threat. It is vital that the judiciary also protect their independence and apply the law and rule of law without fear or favour.
Abhish K. Bose : In the UK, the Constitutional reforms Act, 2005, has created the Judicial Appointment Commission for the appointment of the judges. In India, the High Court and Supreme Court judges are appointed by the President under the Collegium system. Allegations of executive infringing on the judicial appointments in India have often sprung up. How do you compare the efficacy of the UK and Indian systems of the selection of judges in higher judiciary?
David Greene : I don’t know enough of the Indian appointment process to comment on that. The Constitutional Reforms Act 2005 sought to reinforce the independence of the judiciary. This was effected in two ways; the Lord Chief Justice became the head of the judiciary and the constitutional safeguard of its independence replacing the Lord Chancellor who as a politician sitting in Cabinet was seen as reflecting political control of the judiciary and in the establishment of the Judicial Appointments Commission, reinforcing the independence of the appointments process. Overall this has delivered although recently there has been concern that the Lord Chancellor, who is also the Minister of Justice, has put the rule of law second to political expediency and promoted or supported legislation that contradicts the rule of law. For the JAC there has been concern that the selection process remains opaque and that appointments, particularly to the higher judiciary, lack diversity.
Abhish K. Bose : What are your views on the Indian government banning the BBC documentary on theGujarat genocide?
David Greene : Whatever be the subject it is, as a matter of principle, a sign of danger in a democracy when a programme is banned because it holds politicians to account. Freedom of speech and criticism is all important to the rule of law and to democracy.
Abhish K. Bose : You were accused of deliberately misleading a judge in a case with a businessman, however, a tribunal later absolved you from the charges. Could your share you experiences and your thought processes over the course of the whole incident?
David Greene : For a lawyer there is no greater accusation that that you have lied to the court in breach of our primary obligations. Of course it is gratifying to be absolved by one’s peers but even so it is an allegation that hurts. The events are over a decade old but when the allegations resurfaced I was President of the Law Society and felt it only right to step aside to ensure that the role and institution was unaffected. Unfortunately some, even lawyers, rushed to judgment forgetting the fundament of innocent until proven guilty. It was of course a time of intense stress and pressure but one must have and maintain resolve.
Interview with Prof. Dr. hab. Constantin Iordachi, Professor of history and a leading scholar on the history of fascism – By Abhish K. Bose
Constantin Iordachi is Professor of History at the Central European University, Vienna, co-director of Pasts, Center for Historical Studies; co-editor of the journal East Central Europe, and president of the International Association for Comparative Fascist Studies. His research and academic teaching focuses mainly on comparative approaches to historical research; totalitarianism and mass politics; and citizenship and minorities in Central Europe. His publications include: Comparative Fascist Studies: New Perspectives (London: Routledge, 2010); Liberalism, Constitutional Nationalism, and Minorities: The Making of Romanian Citizenship, c. 1750–1918 (Leiden: Brill, 2019); The Fascist Faith of the Legion “Archangel Michael” in Romania, 1927–1941. Martyrdom and National Purification (London: Routledge, 2023); Beyond the Fascist Century (London: Palgrave Macmillian, 2020); and Occupation and Communism in Eastern European Museums (London: Bloomsbury, 2021). Asian Lite’s Abhish K. Bose discusses the tendencies of different kinds of instability across the globe and the scourge of Fascism.
Excerpts from the interview
Abhish K. Bose: The world is plagued at present by economic depression, climate-change related disasters, fissures in democracies, atrocities against women and minorities, insecurity as a result of wars, global power inequalities, depletion of civil societies, and the damages sustained due to the Covid 19 pandemic. Do you think these signs presage the emergence of fascist regimes in the world?
Constantin: In general terms, it is—of course—a truism to say that our world is in full transformation, as human societies are always in a state of flux and motion. But it is undeniable that the pace of change has greatly accelerated in the last two to three decades, in multiple fields. New technologies have greatly impacted our lives, increasing our comfort and efficiency but alsouprooting traditional ways of life. Oftentimes, new technological products resemble magic, nourishing our illusions that we can become full masters of the material world; at the same time, the global pandemic and the dramatic effects of climate change have exposed the fragility of our advanced civilization and its precarious equilibrium. Economic globalization and integration have led to unprecedented prosperity around the world, lifting entire regions or countries out of poverty. Yet, not everybody has benefited equally from these developments: the few rich—especially multinational corporations—have become much richer while workers in developing countries gained at best a minimum decent income (which is, of course, an achievement that should not be minimalized). At the same time, the standard of living of the middle classes in advanced economies has largely stagnated, while employment opportunities for blue- and white-collar workers have greatly shrunken, making them believe there are, actually, at the losing end of globalization.
From here internal calls for protectionism and a reversal of globalization. In the international realm, some old or newly emerging ‘great powers’—most notably Russia, China, and Iran—contest the US-led liberal international order instituted after World War II and demand their own sphere of influence in a reorganized, multipolar world. In this context, we see a move away from free trade,economic integration, and political cooperation specific to globalization, and the rise of nationalism and economic protectionism, accompanied by a growing division of the world in rival geo-political blocks, leading to quasi-separation, and an exacerbation of militaryconflicts in the frontier zones between these blocks.
Taken together, these developments have increased the middle classes’ sense of insecurity and precarity. The important side-effectsthat you mention do indeed resemble the constellation of factors that led to the rise of fascism in the interwar period: economic stagnation or recession, the high rate of inflation, and the continuous growth of social inequalities are weakening the middle classes in emerging but also in established democracies, while the growing political polarization risks fracturing our societies, facilitating the spread of authoritarianism and military values around the world. Surely, this constellation of factors does not necessarily lead to fascism, as history never repeats itself in the same form, but the danger of political radicalization to right-wing extremism scapegoating ‘the Other’ for the growing economic difficulties encountered by large segments of the population is looming large. In fact, in some societies this phenomenonhas become a reality, as some far-right parties are increasingly ‘normalized’ and accepted as partners in ruling coalitions, while centrist leaders drift to far-right agendas.
Abhish K. Bose : Fascist ideology represents a synthesis of anti-materialist socialism and nationalism. It is thus a movement in political ideas peculiar to the twentieth century with its own intellectual and historical roots and rationale. Do you think fascism and communism mirror each other?
Constantin : Fascism is a late comer in politics: as a political movement, it emerged after World War I, at a time when there already existed widespread mass political ideologies, most importantly liberalism and communism. From its inception, fascism was compared and contrasted to liberalism, but also—almost obsessively—to communism, its professed archenemy. This comparison has been highly politicized: usually, people on the left-side of the political spectrum reject the comparison, denouncing it as a form of anticommunism, on the count that it implicitly puts communism on the same par with the greatest evil in history, fascism. On the other hand, people on the far-right side erroneously argue that fascism was no more than a ‘legitimate’ defense against Bolshevism; ultimately, this perspective attempts to exculpate fascists’ responsibility for the Holocaust and to downplay its uniqueness, portraying Holocaust as a ‘defensive reaction’ to the Gulag.
A visitor walks past photographs of Holocaust children victims at Children’s Memorial of the Yad Vahsem Holocaust memorial museum in Jerusalem. (Photo: Xinhua/Li Rui/IANS)
As a historian, I argue that comparisons are always useful and instructive if their intellectual aims and methodological framework are clear and sound. The fall of communism and the end of the Cold War have enabled historians to take a retrospective view of the short twentieth century (1918-1989/1991), thus making the comparison between fascism and communism unavoidable, at least as far as the history of Eastern Europe is concerned. That is because fascism and communism are two related and, in certain ways, interdependent, mass political ideologies. Both emerged as revolts against liberal democracy and strove to provide autopian alternative to it, either in the form of a backward-looking utopia that promises to restore the lost glory of the unified and homogeneous nation, as in the case of fascism, or in the form of establishing a perfectly equalitarian society, freed from human exploitation and alienation, as in the case of communism.
In practice, both ideologies turned into exclusivist political religions, demanding total regimentation and devotion to their cause, the concentration of power in the hands of a strong party and leader, and a centralized state based on coercion and repression. In view of their similarities, and their entangled histories, the two ideologies and the complex set of movements/parties and regimes they generated, can be fruitfully analyzed together. Yet, it should be noted that the act of comparison does not presuppose total likeness. Despite their superficial similarities, there are, however, major differences between fascism and communism at the level of both ideology and practice. The origins of the two ideologies are different, one is totalitarianism of the left, rooted in the idea of equality, the other is totalitarianism of the right, rooted in the idea of hierarchy and domination.
The communist ideology has a longer and much richer genealogy, at the center of which stand Karl Marx and his key work, Das Kapital, but also Friedrich Engels, Vladimir I. Lenin, and then Joseph Stalin,Mao Zedong, and other theoreticians and practitioners of national paths to building ’real existing socialism’ (I leave aside the rich political and intellectual tradition of non-Marxist socialism). In contrast, the fascist ideology crystalized much later, and lacked a similar level of elaboration, political unity, and cohesion. For a time, fascist movements and regimes had two competing centers, Rome and Berlin, and were never as tightly integrated as the Communist Internationals were (especially the Third International, the Comintern), also due to the fact that nationalist utopias are ultimately incompatible with each other. Last but not least, Communist regimes were long-lived, managing to consolidate and to survive over seventy years in Soviet Union, and over forty years in Eastern Europe. Some regimes, in China, Cuba and North Korea, for example, have even survived the fall of the Soviet Union. In contrast, fascist political experiments were short-lived and invariably ended in wars of aggression and annihilation.
One of the several photographs of Lenin and Stalin in Gorki in September 1922, taken by Maria Ilyinichna Ulyanova.
We can conclude that, although political extremes end up resembling each-other in terms of fanaticism and totalitarian outlook on politics and society, the content of the two ideologies, their revolutionary projects of transforming society and their prototypes of the ‘new man’ and ‘woman’ were distinct and resulted in markedly different societies, one based on a class utopia, the other on a racial one. In the end, however, the role of social scientists in comparing the two political phenomena is not to assign or shift blame and to establish moral hierarchies by entering into the highly problematic logic of “competitive martyrdom” counterposing the Holocaust to the Gulag, but to try to understand why these ideologies, movements, and regimes, gained political dominance, how they have impacted our societies and, most importantly, how to prevent political extremism from rising again.
I personally come from Central Europe, one of the few regions of the world that experienced both types of totalitarian dictatorships; many countries in the region, including Romania, my country of origin, set up truth commissions that condemned both forms of totalitarianism, fascist and communist. I personally had the opportunity to work for one of the two commissions; my participation was motivated by professional interest and civic responsibility, but also by a sense of moral duty to the memory of my father, who taught me to resent dictatorship, and who wished ardently to live in a democratic society (a dream only fleetingly fulfilled).
Abhish K. Bose : Hitler used perfectly legitimate democratic procedures to hijack Germany into the orbit of fascism. What, in your opinion, are the points of vulnerability in modern democracies that make it gravitate towards the fascist mode? Do you think that Indian democracy is poised in this way?
Constantin : As a political force, fascism proved vulnerable under authoritarian regimes, which had the capacity to coopt or violently crash fascism, in an incipient form; and in consolidated democracies, which managed to marginalize fascism by rendering it electorally insignificant. In turn, fascism blossomed in unconsolidated or unfunctional, indeed decaying, democracies. In those contexts, fascists could take advantage of the political freedom provided by parliamentary regimes, while at the same time exploiting the flaws of the existing democratic order, hit hard by economic recession.
Hitler’s accession to power is a perfect example of that: NSDAP ran in elections and managed to gain relative electoral majority by capitalizing on a radical message of ‘salvation,’ while at the same time denouncing democracy and the very existence of the regime of political pluralism that made their legal existence possible. The Nazi state was built on the ruins of the Weimer Republic and remained, in a way, parasitic on in. Indeed, Hitler became Chancellor by legal means but soon forced the rules of the existing political system by hijacking the office of the Presidency, as well; he then redefined his political legitimacy by adopting the title of the Führer, thus transforming his legal-rational legitimacy into charismatic authority.
Adolf Hitler in office seating on his desk. Bavarian national library, Hoffmann phototheque, image number hoff-1956. Picture of 1936, published in IB in 1937, special issue titled : Adolf Hitler’s Germany. (By Bundesarchiv, Bild)
The next radical steps were to wipe out the political opposition, to abolish the rule of law and to unleash a large-scale, murderous campaign of racial cleansing. What are the points of vulnerability in modern democracies that can be exploited? Surely, perfect democracies—just like perfect societies—do not exist. Democracies are vulnerable precisely because they are very complex and delicate mechanisms, that can be easily disturbed. In democratic societies, citizens have rights and can defend their interests; consequently, the decision-making process is slow, because it is based on deliberations at various levels and on multiple forms of ‘negotiations’ among a variety of actors. This enables its enemies to deceivably argue that democracies are inefficient, chaotic, and seemingly “corrupt.” By vocation, democracies also shelter the interest of all inhabitants, including various types of minorities.
This virtue is routinely misrepresented and exploited by nationalists or fundamentalists who argue that democracy works for the interest of ‘aliens’ rather that of the ‘titular nation.’ There are thus many potential dangers to democracy, internal as well as external, but fascism is probably the greatest one, because it not only negates freedom and pluralism, but, most importantly, our common humanity. I personally believe that democracies are, arguably, superior to all other forms of government because they have the capacity to constantly correct themselves through open debates and free elections. In turn, authoritarian societies are compelled to either rebel or wait the life cycle of a dictator to correct the political course.
Abhish K. Bose : Hannah Arendt called fascism the ‘ temporary alliance of the elite and the mob’. The only thing that’s ever beaten it was an alliance of the centre and the left. Could you explain the relevance of such an alliance to resisting fascism in the world today?
Constantin : I have already mentioned that fascism thrived in unconsolidated democracies, in which the body politics was fractured by political polarization and fratricide in-fights. Fascism managed to capture power by capitalizing on their anti-communist message, which enabled them to coopt elements of the traditional elites, such as the monarchy, the Church, the army, andconservative parties. At the same time, it benefited from the collapse of the traditional massparties, as well as the growing divisions within the left, and managed to successful enroll part of the working class by mobilizing them to the national cause. It was in this context that an aggressive minority, the fascists, could capture the political power.
Today, we see a growing political polarization between the left and the right; this polarization is very harmful for democracy because it destroys the political center, it politicizes issues of common interest, and it ultimately leads to ideological indoctrination, fanaticism, and the demonization of the Other as irreconcilable enemies. I have read a great number of newspapers from the interwar period and I was really struck by the fact that, although very polemical, most newspapers were in fact deeply engaged ideologically and only spoke to the converted instead of genuinely engaging with the arguments of the other side; sadly, this dialogue of the deaf, in which people seemingly exchange views but in fact none is listening to the other is characterizing, more and more, our contemporary world, as well.
It seems as if the idea of society, as a whole, and even that of reality as such, has melted away, and we now live in parallel and closed-in universes, namely our own media algorithms, populated by likeminded people. Or, democracies can only function effectively when there is a large consensus in society over democratic values as well as the rule of law and trust in the mission and functioning of representative institutions, such as the press, the judiciary, the parliament, and political parties.
Abhish K. Bose : Fascism exerts its hold when people’s faith in parties and ideologies decline, generating the craving for strong leaders of the messianic mode. When people loses faith in democratic institutions and processes, especially in the wake of crisis situations like war, genocide, national disarray, fascist tendencies tend to emerge. The Russian invasion of Ukraine is on-going and autocratic tendencies are prevailing in a number of countries. Going by this trend how do you evaluate contemporary democracies and their susceptibility to fascist tendencies?
Constantin : So far, we have spoken mostly about fascism. However, it should be noted that, historically, fascist movements originated as small extremist groups on the margins of existing pluralistic political systems. In times of crisis, their radical message grained tractions and they managed to grow and capture the political power. Yet, I think that today, the main danger to democracy are not the small and marginal fascist or neo-Nazi extremist groupings, who are still on the fringes of the political system but the radicalization of the mainstream and the rise of new types of hybrid authoritarian regimes. To be sure, fascist and neo-Nazi groups are very harmful to democracy and very dangerous, indeed, as the recent plot to overthrow the government in Germany, discovered in December 2022, revealed.
Their small size is not an argument for ignoring them: history shows that in times of crises such antisystem movements of change can grow exponentially, almost overnight. But again, the most immediate danger to democracy today is more mundane: biased media that leads to polarization and demonization of political adversaries, populist politicians who stir and manipulate negative emotions, thus paving the way, consciously or unconsciously, to authoritarian regimes, and tech companies who spy on our privacy and sell our data for purposes of political manipulation. There is a great danger that we will end up living—apparently, even without noticing—in hybrid authoritarian regimes which maintain a façade of democracy, high-tech modernity, and even some generic liberties (the right to private property, to free travel, etc.), while at the same time restricting basic political rights and liberties.
Invariably, such ‘soft’ authoritarian regimes tend to ossify over time, becoming more rigid and appealing to ideological indoctrination and hard coercive measures to retain power. Putin’s Russia, for example, warns us that the toxic combination of personality cult, national messianism, victimhood nationalism, and social militarism can lead to wars of aggression and a hardeningauthoritarian regime.
Abhish K. Bose : What is the role propaganda plays in spreading and popularising fascism? What is it in the collective psyche of a people that disposes them towards fascist modes of governance? It is that people get weary of freedom, when it cannot be combined with bread? Do boredom and depression make people crave for strong leaders who are assumed to be larger-than-life? Or does it owe more to the moral decay of a people, which aggravates their secret affinity to dictators and tyrants: leaders with criminal propensities?
Constantin : Well, there is no one single fascist personality; as fascism is a ‘catch-all-party,’ you can find all the profiles that you mentioned within fascist movements. Historically you can find veterans brutalized by the war experience or depressed by post-war realities and injustice; you can find youngsters striving for adventure, alienated by the unjust socio-political system or simply recruited into seductive yet violent youth subcultures; you can find bureaucrats or low middle class elements who felt deeply insecure of their social position and attempted to use the state to eliminate competition from rival groups; you can find members of the middle class who, although managed to climb on the social ladder, nevertheless felt hampered in their social ascension by ‘rival’ minority groups; you can find former aristocrats who wantedto recover their lost privileges by restoring society to its former shape.
Fascist movements and regimes managed to build a powerful coalition of the marginals; they were successful in capturing negative public feelings, such as anger and resentments, amplifying and channeling them against various racial, ethnic, or political minorities, stigmatized as alien to the body of the nation. Propaganda, and a campaign of permanent mobilization, were key to creating and sustaining such a heterogeneous and ultimately unstable emotions-based community.
Abhish K. Bose : Creating myths was an important tool for historical fascism. What is the role technology plays in the topical period in creating and disseminating fascist myths?
Constantin : Fascism is a form of mass politics, and in this sense, it is very well-tuned to modern politics. First, its ideology is built on the ‘bedrock of nationalism,’ as George Mosse once put it, and this gave it an enormous power in manipulated collective identity discourses. Second, fascism made innovative use of the power of the myths in politics, mostly importantly the myth of the rebirth and regeneration of the nation through cleansing. At the turn of the century, the anarcho-syndicalist thinker George Sorel emphasized the key role of myths in mobilizing political action, while Gustave Le Bon provided, in The Crowd: A Study of the Popular Mind, a textbook of mass manipulations. Both thinkers shaped fascists’ approach to politics.
Italian Fascists and German National Socialists tended to avoid the written press (calling it the ‘liberal’ or the ‘lying’ press) and employed instead innovative forms of propaganda, most importantly the radio and the cinema, to spread the cult of the leader and to mobilize the masses. Fascists were very skillful in using modern design and technology in their political campaigns—such as visual posters, uniforms, automobiles, and airplanes—to create and market their own, easily recognizable ‘political branding.’ By these means, fascism cultivatedthe illusion of a regenerated, harmonious national community; its electoral popularity was based on the mobilization of the masses through the aestheticization of politics, but its hold on power could only be sustained through violence, repression, and war.
Abhish K. Bose : What is the synergy between financial capital and the reigning political elite? It is postulated that political ideologies and their manifested forms in governmental authority are furthered by financial capital. Why does capital favour one ideology in preference over the rest at the given juncture in history? How do you view the nexus between world capital and right wing ideologies?
Constantin : Political regimes are very complex constructions. They are not simply a reflection of a given ideology or class interest, but composite edifices based on the interplay of many factors. Obviously, the existing economic system, in general, and the power of financial capital playsa role in shaping political regimes, but that can work in a multitude of ways. Karl Polanyi famously and intriguingly argued that interwar fascism was produced by the crisis of 19thcentury liberalism, mostly the instance of the finance capital on maintaining the gold standard, which led to austerity-based financial policies that ruined the middle class, paving the way to fascism. In our age, I guess a key question is whether capitalism is bound to function in democratic and pluralistic societies, or, in periods of crisis and “financialization” of the capital, it can accommodate to, or even strive for, strong-hand authoritarian regimes.
In Western Europe, capitalism and liberal democracy tended to evolve in tandem in the modern period, but of course this has been a relation full of great tensions, as capitalism creates inequalities while democracy strives to forge legal-political equality but also a welfare state through economic regulations and redistribution. We cannot predict how far the current wave of far-right radicalization I described earlier will go, but to date the global financial capital and multinational corporations, which are of course profit-oriented, have proven that they can unscrupulously cooperate with various political regimes, including authoritarian one. On the long run, however, technological innovation and competition tends to thrive in open societies based on the freedom of speech and research, and a better fulfillment of human potential; that is why I think advanced democracies will always retain a technological edge over authoritarian regimes. This hypothesis, and the causal link between capitalism and liberal democracy, is currently put to test, however, especially by the rise of China.
Abhish K. Bose : Do individuals gravitate towards a particular ideology on the basis of a largely subliminal elective affinity to it, both material and psychological? Or, are they brainwashed and induced into doing so?
Constantin : This is a key social science question, and I guess every researcher would like to know the definite answer to it. The fact is, however, that ideological affinities are very complexphenomena. We cannot reduce them to material interest or affect only but are always due to a complex combination of factors, from phycological profiles and predispositions to education,upbringing and social milieu, and to perceived material or class interests, to name but a few.These complicating factors produce various and dynamic constellations of individual and collective consciousness. New, innovative studies show that ideological reproduction in the family is far from automatic, and that far-right (hawkish) parents are more successful in passing their Manichean worldview to their children than liberal (dovish) parents.
Political socialization outside family seems to be a highly important factor; in the case of fascism, the rise of violent paramilitary youth subcultures and their development into large protest movements fueled by resentments played an important role. Once far right activists enter the slippery slope of radicalization, based on a community of radical values, and on a set ofseductive rites and rituals, they find it difficult if not impossible to get off that track. Underground communities of likeminded activists tend to further accelerate the process of radicalization leading to the adoption of political violence. It is difficult to say if it is ideology or the process of common socialization (e.g. feelings of camaraderie) that plays the decisive role in radicalization to violence, since beliefs are not always or not necessarily translatedinto actions, and vice-versa. I would say, most of the time, radical ideas and actions shape and fuel each-other in dynamic ways.
Abhish K. Bose : It is said that violence has an atavistic appeal to human psyche. Does this inherent trait of human violence serve as a natural catalyst for the emergence and consolidation of fascism?
Constantin : Fascism promotes a radical fantasy of salvation through cleansing. Fascists promise to restore an ideal, harmonious national community by putting an end to its decadence and restoring the nation’s golden period and authenticity (identified, in most cases, with the ‘glorious Middle Ages’). To achieve these goals, fascism cultivates a masculine culture of violence, both verbal and physical. Needless to say, the paramount importance attacked to the role of violence in modern politics was by no means a fascist invention; I already referred to Sorel, who pointed out to the role of violence in changing society; so did the anarchists and later, the Bolsheviks. On the right-side of the political spectrum, the Italian Futurists, who were fellow travelers of fascism in Italy, made the eulogy of violence as a form of ‘social catharsis’ and even spoke of the ‘beauty of war.’
The poet Gabriele D’Annunzio staged an innovative paramilitary political experiment in Fiume, called the Italian Regency of Carnaro, which served as a model for Mussolini. On their turn, fascists fully embraced violence as a means of transforming society. Violent cleansing became the central tenant of the fascist ideology; its message capitalized, time and again, on the role of violence in renewing society.But, as I have tried to argue in my writings, and also in the course of this conversation, fascism did not emerge as a ready-made product, but was the end result of a long process of radicalization. If we want to block the rise of fascism in today’s world, we should pay attention to the spread of political violence and try to prevent the kind of spiral of violence that led to terrifying consequences in the interwar period. Invariably, the process of fascistization starts with a sharp political polarization between the right and the left, the adoption of bellicose, militant language in politics and journalism, marked by the glorification of only a part of the people as the real people (the ‘qualitative people’ as Umberto Eco called it) and the exclusion, demonization, and the dehumanization of the ‘Others,” stigmatized as enemies.
The process of radicalization then continues with the open adoption of political violence in street fights against political opponents and terrorist assassinations of ‘treacherous politicians.’ Attacks on ‘traitors’and ‘collaborators’ is then amplified with attacks against entire collectivities, be they political communities (the liberals, the social democrats, the communists), or ethno-religious communities such as the Jews in the interwar period, or the Muslims or the Roma nowadays, identified as aliens in the body of the nation and as enemies that need to be annihilated. The road is thus paved for the implementation of projects of large-scale violent cleansing. In unconsolidated democracies, societies are largely unable to neutralize this process of radicalization, due to the weakness of the civil society, the corruption and inefficiency of representative institutions, and the lack of the rule of law.
Oftentimes, authorities lack adequate legislation and effective strategies of deradicalization and react violently and even lawlessly to the rise of extremism. Temporarily, such police tactics can prove efficient; on the long run, however, they pour gasoline on the fire. What should we learn, then, from these historical trajectories? Historical awareness and education for democracy helps prevent radicalization, but we must be aware that people tend to learn the hard way, from their own painful experiences, rather than from the received wisdom. That is why history is still an open book and each generation searches its own path.
I guess my bottom-line message is this: be protective of your democratic rights and never give them up or delegate them to a would-be savior of the nation—most often a seductive strongmanwho promises protection and ultimately, a “paradise on earth” in a harmonious and homogenous community—because you then lose the ability to defend yourself and become vulnerable to political abuses. Such political concessions based on trust might seem minor in exchange for the promised social or national ‘protection,’ yet they prove highly consequential. Democratic rights can be easily lost but are increasingly difficult to regain; most often, their restoration necessitates a mass revolt that can often result in violent clashes and casualties. There is no substitute for constant vigilance because, as we know, the sleep of reason produces monsters.
‘To immunize the Indian judicial system from corruption Indian Parliament should pass strict criminal law to punish those who are part of the corruption’
Dr Sarosh Zaiwalla founded Zaiwalla & Co in London in 1982. It is the first English solicitors firm in the one “Square Mile” financial and commercial district of the City of London started by a solicitor from India. The firm is internationally known for turning around difficult cases and achieving success where there is a large amount and important legal issues at stake.
In 1983, the firm obtained India’s first ever success in the House of Lords on an issue involving compound interest. This was a test case which resulted in a saving of over US$5 million for India, at a time when India was undergoing a foreign exchange crunch. Over the years Sarosh has been involved in over 1200 International Arbitrations in London and worldwide. He has acted for many prestigious clients including the President of India, China National Petroleum Corporation, NIDC of Iran and International Public Corporations. He also successfully handled the libel proceedings in the Bachchans Bofors case. Zaiwalla & Co succeeded for Bank Mellat of Iran in the UK Supreme Court challenging the listing of the bank under Iran’s Nuclear Proliferation Sanctions and thereafter successfully obtained a large damages claim for the bank against the UK Government. At present, the firm is acting for the Central Bank of Venezuela against the Bank of England for the return of 31 tons of gold valued at US$2.1 billion which Venezuela had deposited with the Bank of England in its safety deposit vaults.
In 2019, at the invitation of Harper Collins India, Zaiwalla authored his first memoir titled ‘Honour Bound – Adventures of an Indian Lawyer in the English Courts’. The book has been read all over the world and details Mr Zaiwalla’s remarkable legal career and most interesting cases throughout the years. It also sets out the story of Zaiwalla’s contribution to the development of diversity in London, which has proved to be of great significance given the recent appointment of the first British Asian Prime Minister in the UK. In September 2022, Mr Zaiwalla was invited to Ulaanbaatar by the Mongolian Government to launch the Mongolian language edition of his book. During his visit to Mongolia, Sarosh was awarded by Mongolia’s Ministry of Law & Justice a Medal of Honour on behalf of the Mongolian Government for having succeeded for a Mongolian State organisation, Erdenet Mining Corporation, recovering a debt owed of US$20 million against the Kazakhstan Government.
From 1990 to 2002, Mr Zaiwalla was a member of the International Court of Arbitration of the ICC Paris where he held India’s seat for 3 terms of 4 years. In October 2002, Mr Zaiwalla was awarded with India’s Annual National Law Day by the Indian Prime Minister, Mr Vajpayee, for his outstanding contribution to the field of International Arbitration Law. In May 2004, Mr Zaiwalla had the honour to be personally asked by His Holiness the Dalai Lama to facilitate a dialogue with the Government of the People’s Republic of China with a view to finding a peaceful resolution relating to Tibet. In October 2007, Mr Zaiwalla was invited by the United Nations Secretary General Ban Ki Moon to New York for an extensive one-to-one consultation on issues related to World Order.
Sarosh Zaiwalla
Mr Zaiwalla has undertaken several overseas visits as part of the business delegation accompanying the UK Government Ministers and the Lord Mayor of the City of London.
The Times named Mr Zaiwalla as ‘Lawyer of the Week’ in 2020 for his success in the Court of Appeal in favour of their client, the Central Bank of Venezuela, against the Bank of England. This ongoing case raises important questions of law and has been covered widely in the media.
In an interview with Asian Lite’s Abhish K. Bose he reflects on a number of questions ranging from his experience as a lawyer in the English Courts to the alleged incident of corruption in the Kerala High Court.
Excerpts from the interview
Abhish K. Bose: Your growth as an Indian lawyer finding success in the English courts was a rare feat. You recalled that there were racial tensions which often obstructed your way in the beginning of your career. How different is the scenario now? Is it still the same or has it mellowed a lot?
Zaiwallaa: Indeed there were racial barriers in the beginning of my career in London, however as Britain is a fair society which strictly follows the Rule of Law, these barriers were not insurmountable, if handled with understanding and care. I recognised early on an important factor. Unlike the USA, which is a country of immigrants, the UK is a country of natives and I have to respect the natives customs and traits followed in both friendship and commercial relationships. In England, I have found through experience that so long as one maintains a decorum of courtesy and honesty, one gets a corresponding helpful response in return. This I found applied at all levels, from men on the street to the judiciary and political leaders. Nowadays the UK is much more open and diverse, and the appointment of the first Asian Prime Minister with an Indian background is a wonderful illustration of the growth the United Kingdom has achieved and is a very encourage step towards the ‘One World, One Mankind’ principle.
Abhish K. Bose: What are the qualitative differences manifested in the English legal system compared to the Indian legal system? Can Indian legal system imbibe from the British system at a phase of significant decadence in the Indian system and when allegations of cooption to the governmental pressures sprung up even at the pronouncement of verdicts?
Zaiwalla: The Indian legal system followed the English legal system as it was to apply to the British colonies at that time, therefore making it a non-flexible system in the best interest of the British empire. I have found Judges in the British legal system to look at legal issues in more real and practical terms and interpret the law which would meet the ends of justice. As I have never practiced in the Indian Court I am not in a position to compare Indian Judges to English Judges but I can say with confidence that the English Judges’ approach to law is that ‘law is for justice and not justice for law’. The English common law approach allows the court to follow this. In my 41 years of experience before the English Court, I have found the Judges to be strictly honest and upright in considering the verdict without any bias to the Government and/or any other institutions. I must also add that I have never come across a single instance where any of the English Judges had subjected to Government pressure. The latest example of this is the famous challenging of the Parliament Resolution by Prime Minister Boris Johnson relating to the issue of the UK’s exit from the EU. In that case, the Government lost the verdict by 11-0 before the UK Supreme Court.
Supreme Court.
Abhish K. Bose: You have represented giant corporations and heads of governments across the globe. What are the ethical yardsticks that you embrace while representing those parties?
Zaiwalla: In representing these parties the ethical yardsticks which I have adopted is to act with full integrity, trustworthiness, and fairness. However important my clients are, I would never consider putting forward misleading facts on their behalf. There have been multiple occasions where I have withdrawn on an existing client case because I have found the clients evidence to be dishonestly obtained, or the client has admitted unlawful conduct.
Abhish K. Bose: As a lawyer who spend a major portion of your life and career in UK how do you consider the attitude of the British political leadership towards India. With the ascendancy of Rishi Sunak as PM is there any expressed improvement in their attitude towards India?
Zaiwalla: As the world knows, in a democracy views of political leadership changes according to the party elected to power. This typically happens everywhere. Generally in today’s international politics, what matters is what is best for the economics of a country. From my experience, I can say that British political leadership towards India has been responsive and now that the Indian economy has grown (and is likely to be the 5th biggest economy in the world very soon), British political leadership would look at India in a way more favourable than ever before. In today’s world, it is all about internal economics when it comes to the question of foreign policy.
Abhish K. Bose: In your memoir’ Honour Bound – Adventures of an Indian lawyer in the English Courts’ published in 2020 you revealed about the dealings from businessman Ajitabh Bachchan, whom you represented in a libel case in London in connection with the alleged Bofors kick back. You claimed that you know the source of the money which Ajithabh invested in the shipping business on your behalf, however, you did not divulged it in your memoir. Could you explain whose money it was and how that episode came to an end?
To be honest, I really never knew the source of the money which Ajitabh had said to be invested in a shipping business on my behalf. It would be wrong for me to guess. I was never directly told the source of the money. I have described how this episode ended in my memoir ‘Honour Bound – Adventures of an Indian Lawyer in the English Courts’, which has been published by Harper Collins.
Abhish K. Bose: In a shocking incident at the Kerala High Court, a lawyer allegedly received bribes from accused persons for getting favourable verdicts over the enticement that the money is to be given to the judges handling the cases. Similar incidents indicates the prevalence of corruption in judiciary. How can the Indian judicial system be immunized from corruption?
Zaiwalla: Corruption in judiciary is outrageous and this incident in the Kerala High Court needs to be condemned. I have never come across any suggestion of corruption in respect of English Judges at any level. The obvious way to immunize the Indian judicial system from corruption is for the Indian Parliament to pass strict criminal law to punish not only the Judges involved, but also the interlocutrices who play any part in the corruption process with strict prison sentences and confiscation of assets bought through corrupt funds.
Abhish K. Bose: The legal proceedings in the Enrica Lexie case in which two Italian marine officers allegedly shot down two Kerala based fishermen culminated without convicting the marines and the Court in Rome as well as the Supreme Court of India quashed the case thereby stipulating to provide monetary compensation. As an international arbitrator do you think whether the case was handled judiciously by the Indian authorities in which the lives of two of its citizens were claimed?
Zaiwalla: I am of the view that the decision of the court in Rome, as well as the Supreme Court of India, was correct and fair. Under criminal law, there must be ‘mens rea’, meaning a guilty mind for a crime having said to be committed. If the shooting of the Kerala fisherman was the result of a misconceived danger on part of the Italian marine officers, then one cannot say that ‘mens rea’ existed in these circumstances to find them guilty of a criminal conduct.
Italian marines Massimiliano Latorre (L) and Salvatore Girone (R) accused of killing two Indian fishermen in 2012 during an anti-piracy mission. (File Photo: IANS)
Abhish K. Bose: Mass migration is the rule of the day of the contemporary world as huge populations across the globe are looking forward to exploit its possibilities. What are the existing legal protections for the migrants in UK?
Zaiwalla: In so far as legal method of immigration is concerned, there is a legal procedure for a person to enter and live in the UK. In the UK the principle of the Rule of Law is strictly adhered to by the Courts and its citizens. For any foreign passport holder to enter the UK without immigration clearance would be unlawful and therefore the British Government is bound to take steps to prevent such unlawful immigration. Britain is a signatory to the United Conventions of Human Rights which requires countries to allow refugees to be granted asylum, but this only applies to those who are not refugees by choice but those who lose their homes and belongings because of war or national calamities which makes it virtually impossible for them to stay in the their home countries.
Vipparthi Adimurthy is a former Satish Dhawan Professor and Dean of Research at the Indian Institute of Space Science and Technology (IIST). He is known for his contributions to the rocket technology and space dynamics. He is a recipient of Padma Shri from the Government of India. Murthy is the Mission Concept Designer, for India’s Mars Orbiter Mission. On the occasion of his Golden Jubilee association with ISRO, Khushboo Agrahari interviewed on his 50 years of successful journey.
Here’s the excerpt of the Interview taken:
You are known for your contributions to the rocket technology and space dynamics. You have been part of all major projects of the ISRO over the decades, including the Chandrayaan I. Tell us about your journey as a successful space scientist?
In March 1973, after finishing my Ph D from Indian Institute of Technology, Kanpur, I joined ISRO Space Science and Technology Centre (now called, Vikram Sarabhai Space Centre) in Trivandrum. I have a mutually fulfilling technical pursuit of five decades with ISRO. Even post-retirement, I continue my tasks as an ISRO Honorary Distinguished Professor.
I made very satisfying contributions in aerodynamics, flight dynamics, trajectory optimization, space-debris mitigation and interplanetary mission design, with significant impact on all our Indian space launches, starting from the very first satellite launch of SLV-3 led by Dr APJ Abdul Kalam, to Chadrayaan-1, Mangalyaan, and beyond. The space travel continues, as there is more to achieve in bringing the benefits of space to the development of mankind. A Vision for Indian Solar System Exploration till 2060s was formulated in 2017 by a Team led by me.
Tell us about your childhood. Was there anything at a very early age that nudged or pointed you toward an interest in science?
I was born on 5th May 1946 in Rajahmundry, an ancient town on the banks of Godavari. My parents, Suryanarayana Rao and Venkata Seetha Rajyam, had five children with me in the middle, after two elder brothers and followed by two younger sisters. I studied in schools in Gudivada, Guntur, Vijayawada and Rajahmundry because of father’s transferable job. During primary classes I got double promotions, and I finished 12th standard from Government Multipurpose School in Rajahmundry, when I was about to reach 15 years of age. The school had to get a special approval for me to sit in the board-examinations because of my under-age. Interestingly, I got State Rank No.2.
Teachers, throughout my life gave me great encouragement and inspiration; and even today I gratefully remember each one for their profound contributions to my knowledge base, and thinking process.
Noble thoughts come from many sides. At home I was encouraged by my parents to read many books; like Ramayana and Mahabharata and Telugu Translations of novels by Saratchandra Chattopadhyay. As a boy, I wrote a detective novel in which some culprits escaped to Moon in a rocket; the detective followed them in another rocket, and nabbed them on the moon
You often broadly speak on science and technology developments in Modern India with a particular focus on the space endeavors. What got you into Space Sciences?
The infinite glory and beauty of the cosmic panorama is a source of perennial happiness, curiosity and inspiration to us humans over the ages of our evolution on the planet Earth. Right from childhood we look at the moon and the stars and get fascinated by their presence. Every language has a lot of lullabies centered on moon. As already mentioned above, some of the books I read as a boy (for example the book by Joules Verne) gave me the initial inspirations on space and beyond. During my late teens, when I was pursuing my MSc course at Andhra University, the Comet Ikeya-Seki appeared in the sky. It was supposed to be one of the brightest comets seen in the last thousand years. Watching it was an inspiration that additionally enhanced my interest in space science and technology. The initial discoveries, which are the result of the new technological endeavors from the mid-twentieth century, point to the vast potential that exists for boundless knowledge and immense resource around our own solar system and beyond. Humanity has to continuously pursue this.
What you enjoyed the most and the least throughout your career as a Space Scientist?
Essentially, there is nothing like the most and least enjoyable aspects of my work. All scientific activities are equal stepping stones to move forward. During the five decades of association with the Indian Space Research Organization, I made contributions in aerodynamics, flight dynamics, trajectory optimization, space-debris mitigation and interplanetary mission design; and published more than 150 research papers in these fields.
As already indicated above, I contributed as a key member of India’s path-breaking Chandrayaan-1 mission. I successfully defended, in International Academy of Astronautics competitive process for Laurels for Team Achievement Award to Chandrayaan-1; and on behalf of ISRO team received the award in 2013 at Beijing. I also made significant contributions to Mangalyaan Mission, as Senior Advisor (Interplanetary Missions). Like this the activity list continues. All are of equal importance to me; and are equally and continuously enjoyable.
All these successes have not come without a learning process from our early faltering steps. Tell us about one of your best failures, that became a stepping stone for future successes from your career?
The launch vehicle technology is initially mastered in the learning and experimental phases involving SLV-3 and ASLV launch vehicles. All these successes have not come without a learning process from our early faltering steps. I can say that one of our best failures that was a stepping stone for future successes was our ASLV-D2 failure in July 1988. Up to 50 seconds after liftoff, the launch vehicle was moving upwards exactly as expected. But then in a matter of less than one second, the upper portion of the launch vehicle appeared to take a bend like the shape of an umbrella handle and broke up into pieces. There are a number of complex processes that influence the path of a satellite launch vehicle as it lifts off from the launch pad and in a few minutes time injects the satellites into orbit.All successful satellite launches are alike; but each failure of a launch is due to some specific and unique reason. The key to success is then to remove all possible sources of failure. This is the essence of Anna Karenina Principle. This is the essence of success in space endeavors.
Who inspires you? If you could have a dream job, what would that be?
I am ably supported by leaders in space technology who have inspired me with profound scientific interactions; and also, by colleagues and co-researchers with whom I worked over decades in the joint pursuit of making space endeavors contribute to universal progress of life and environment.
I have mentioned earlier about Tagore-Einstein Meetings. When Rabindranath Tagore and Albert Einstein met in 1930 at Einstein’s residence in Caputh near Berlin, Dimitri Marianoff, a colleague of Einstein, manually recorded their conversations. After their discussions, Marianoff described Tagore as: “the poet with the head of a thinker” and Einstein as: “the thinker with the head of a poet”.I am already in the job I dreamt about, no need to change.
What advice would you offer someone who wants a career like yours?
“Go ahead and do your best. Take up what interests you most, and handle it with utmost seriousness that is commensurate with your background. Doing your own best is doable, it is within your reach, and it is always a pleasure to reach it. But it requires will, concentration and planning.”
What accomplishment are you prouder of that’s not Space Science related?
I am a book-lover, lover of Nature, art lover, and generally admirer of anything that is extraordinary as well as ordinary in human endeavor. I try to perceive the complexity of everything that surrounds us, in the realms of the macrocosm and the microcosm. The unity of this complexity everywhere fascinates me. Many times, I feel that globally everything is the same; and at the same time all things are different in detail. This is a perplexing duality; but it may be indeed true. There are no specific accomplishments from me to high light and be proud of; but it is only the existence of a continuous thought process to acknowledge.
What’s your favorite space image?
There are many favorite images. I shall highlight here two of them. I very much like the concept of the Pale Blue Dot image of our Earth. This image was taken at the suggestion of Carl Sagan, by Voyager 1 on 14th February 1990. Voyager 1 was about 6.4 billion kilometers away when it captured this portrait of our Earth. I am also fascinated by the full-disk images of Mars and the images of Deimos (one of the two natural satellites of Mars) taken by our Mars Orbiter Mission MOM. This represents an important initiation of our planetary mission exploration.
What is your idea of Self- Perfection for people who follow their own hearts and make their own rules and sacrifices, to achieve higher and higher goals?
When you have a noble and lofty aim in your mind, you will not spare any trouble, hurdle or difficulty to reach towards your goal. Your body, mind and spirit will help you to make the rules and regulations that you have to make to achieve the stipulated end with a single-minded focus. This state of mind is the root of self-perfection. Many times, to achieve such goals, the ways and rules of life that are normally followed may not be sufficient. That is why our own rules and special sacrifices may have to be made. This is the path way to achieve excellence in all domains of life, be it science, social service, sports or any field you can conceive.
In the realm of Space Science and Technology, you often quote lines from the Poem “A Psalm of Life” by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow. Who is your favorite Poet? Tell us something about your interest in Poetry and Literature. Do you also like Telugu literature?
Great poems are available in every language and every culture. I read many inspiring poems in my school curriculum and beyond. “A Psalm of Life” is one of them.
In space endeavors, like in any other field, one has to learn from the knowledge discovered by great scholars of the past, and go forward following their footsteps and enhance the knowledge base further by our own little steps, based on the inspiration we derive from the previous efforts. This is succinctly focused in one of the stanzas of the psalm of life:
“Lives of great men all remind us We can make our lives sublime, And, departing, leave behind us Footprints on the sands of time;”
Poetry and literature in general have the innate capacity to inspire. They also touch upon the many diverse aspects of life’s journey. As I already mentioned, every language had a great repository of literature. So, it is but natural that I am also in touch with literature in Telugu, which is my mother tongue. Almost continuously every day, some part or other, from this memory of literary influence, comes to the mind, to augment the current stream of thought process. I may also add that at home we have a personal library of a thousand and odd books of various genre, mostly in Telugu and English.
As the famous line goes “It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye.” What are your views on connection between Space Science and Spirituality?
This quotation is from the very famous book for children “The Little Prince” written originally in French (“Le Petit Prince”) by Antoine de Saint Exupery. More than a children’s book, it is a great philosophical novel, with a specific emotional influence on space travel. This is one of the most powerful and most translated books in the world; and is about the Little Prince who lived on the asteroid B612. A recent translation of this book in the year 2012 was into Sanskrit by Prof. Gopabandhu Mishra of Banaras Hindu University, which he did when he was a Visiting Professor of Sanskrit in Paris.
Any serious pursuit, be it in space science, or social science, or literary creativity, or in any other noble activity we have taken up, requires concentration of body, mind and soul with the target we have set. We have to set aside all other diversions, and fully concentrate on the aim we are pursuing. In this respect, it is no different from spirituality.
Do you believe that some of the planets in our solar-system holds the secrets of our past and the possibilities of our future to see? Also tell us if there is a place in the solar system where humans can colonize outside the Earth, what place would that be?
For the past generations covering several millennia, we and our forefathers lived on Earth, and hence it is but natural that we psychologically look at space from the point of view life and environment on our planet Earth. Looking from a vast cosmological perspective, and from the great observations that modern science and technology has allowed us to make in the recent decades, it appears obvious to me our planet is but one of the several millions of systems that exist. Their coexistence is a complex cosmological process with several dimensions and possibilities of commonality and variability. Life must exist elsewhere. It is statistically improbable that life, in various forms of primitive and advanced evolutionary levels does not exist elsewhere in the cosmos. Observations and material analysis of other planetary bodies will certainly give us more insights of these processes in the coming decades and centuries. Human colonies outside the Earth are also most likely to happen, out of curiosity in the initial phases, and in due course out of necessity as our Earth resources dwindle. Present studies in the world indicate that initial experiments in this direction may take place on Mars, and/or floating colonies over Venus.
Sir you hail from Rajahmundry, East Godavari joined the ISRO in 1973 and has been living in Kerala for last 50 years. Is there anything that you always miss about your native place? What’s that one thing you like about Kerala?
Trivandrum and the rest of Kerala is a uniquely beautiful place. We are comfortable with this environment; and we have no problem in continuing to live here. People of Kerala are in general friendly and have good history of mixing and living with people of other states and countries. And this psychology of co-existence is very useful.
We do visit our native place as often as possible or whenever needed. We also travel to many other places in the country, as well as outside, as the opportunities and necessities arise. So, there is no basic problem.
Sir you are quite well-known for your passion for cycling. You cycled all the way from your Thiruvananthapuram home to Sabarimala. Since when you fell in love with this pursuit?
Naturally, I learnt cycling as a boy. I remember the person who taught me cycling in Rajahmundry. His name was Mr. Yeleswara Rao; he was working in my father’s office. I also remember that unfortunately he died at a young age a few months after his marriage in a road accident, when a heavy vehicle crushed him to a wall while walking near the office. Statistically, I continue to observe that life is full of accidents. I regularly went to school on a cycle. While studying at IIT Kanpur, I used the cycle on the campus. Few years after taking the job with ISRO, at Trivandrum, I initially started using a cycle to go to office on holidays, instead of asking an office vehicle to come to residence and pick me up. It soon occurred to me that it would give me more freedom to work by going to office every day on cycle. For more than 35 years I do this, each day covering a distance of 16km or more. Even now, at the age of 76 years, I continue this. This is primarily my personal strategy for independence in daily travel and flexibly for work. Health and environmental benefits are secondary derivatives I receive.
Space debris is a huge concern. We have a list of satellites that poses danger to space missions as well as human lives. What strategy can be devised to tide over this crisis?
The last five decades of international space initiatives have left behind a multitude of space objects that no longer serve any useful function, but pose risk to space operations. Thus, space debris becomes an important subject for all space faring nations in particular and humanity in general. Space debris includes non-operational spacecraft, spent rocket bodies, material released during planned space operations, and fragments generated by satellite and upper stage breakup due to explosions and collisions. After 50 years of international space operations, nearly 40,000 objects have been catalogued. Catalogued objects are objects larger than 10-20 cm in diameter in Low Earth Orbits (LEO) of up to 2000 km altitude and 1 m in diameter in geosynchronous orbits; and they are regularly tracked and their orbital elements maintained in a database. Even much smaller debris objects can cause problems to space operations
The Inter-Agency Space Debris Coordination Committee, has identified two Protected Regions: Low Earth Orbit (or LEO) Region – and the Geosynchronous Region. This International body has also identified and recommended specific mitigation measures to contain the growth of space debris. Limiting Operational debris, reducing on-orbit break-ups, post-mission disposal into what are called as grave-yard orbits and on-orbit collision prevention are some of the major mitigation themes. Depending on the size and relative velocity of the impacting piece of debris, it can cause various degrees of damage to an operational spacecraft ranging from damage to the viewports, space suits, thermal protection system tiles etc. In critical situations, close-monitoring of the debris trajectory, and debris-avoidance manoeuvres by the spacecraft have to be done. In future, one will have to seriously consider active removal of debris from space.
What according to you are the future challenges in Human Interplanetary Habitat Missions?
The great departed genius, Prof. Stephen Hawking had very aptly stated the possibility and need for future of human colonies: “It is important for the human race to spread out into space for the survival of the species. Life on Earth is at the ever-increasing risk of being wiped out by a disaster, such as an asteroid collision, sudden global warming, nuclear war, a genetically engineered virus or other dangers we have not yet thought of. But once we spread out into space and establish independent colonies, our future should be safe.”
While his prediction is most likely to happen for the stated reasons, and also possibly for more extended reasons; there are many scientific, technical and humanitarian issues to be addressed and resolved appropriately. Some of the broad areas of that we should deeply research and find satisfying solutions are the fields of: 1) handling long-term radiation hazards, 2) Effects of long-duration isolation and confinement, 3) near-permanent separation from the familiar scenarios of planet earth, 4) Long term effects of micro-gravity, and 5) possible hostilities specific to the new planetary environment. As we move towards due solutions to these types of issues, we may also face new and presently unknown issues to be addressed.
Infinity is an abstract concept used to describe something that is endless or boundless. As I quote the lines from Ishavasya Upanishad:
The Concept of INFINITY.
That is WHOLE, This is WHOLE,
Form the WHOLE, emanates the WHOLE
When the WHOLE is taken out of the WHOLE
The WHOLE still remains the WHOLE.
What is your concept of Infinity. How you relate Infinity with SpaceScience?
The concept of infinity is something that I picked up soon after my high school days. As I already mentioned earlier, I happened to read during that period, ‘Introduction to Mathematical Philosophy’ by Bertrand Russell, and “One, Two, Three …Infinity” by George Gamow. From the poems of Tagore as well, I got a poetic perception of the endless (“On the seashore of endless worlds is the meeting of children”).
From the understanding of vastness of space from the new discoveries in the field of space science, one can get a glance of the infinite. Let us take the speed of light. In one second, light can cover a distance of more than seven times earth’s circumference; from earth to moon, it takes 1.25 seconds, from Sun to earth 8.3 minutes, from Sun to next closest star 4.24 years; across our milky way galaxy around 100,000 years; to the closest Andromeda galaxy about 2.5 million years; and to reach the limit of observable universe from earth, light takes around 13.8 billion years. How vast is this universe! Is it infinite? Infinity is bigger and it is endless.
An Infinite Set is a set which has a one-to-one correspondence with a proper subset of itself. Cantor had shown that some infinite sets are greater than others. These mathematical concepts on infinity are really very interesting and understandable.
My perception and fascination of infinity, which started very early in my life, have increased and got firmed up with my exposure to space science and technology in the ways I have described above.
Is there any particular experience you would call your defining moment in space?
My journey is a continuously happy, invigorating and satisfying one. On thy way there are many challenges, inspirations and solutions. I have taken them in my own style and enjoyed the trials and tribulations; as well as the rewards and admirations. In the long perspective, I can say all moments are defining moments, and are determined by the paths taken in the past; and the requirements perceived for the future. There are always some statistical uncertainties which make the journey somewhat more challenging. While deeply engrossed in the present, I have always kept the broad picture of life and contributions in the mind. So, I can say that there are no specific defining moments; but at the same time every work is a defining work.
To highlight this, I give here the translation I made of a great poem by noted Telugu poet, writer and Padma Bhushan and Jnanpith Awardee C Narayana Reddy who passed away on 12 June 2017. I translated his poem on the day his departure news has come. His original poem has continuously inspired me for several decades:
The Contrasts of Life
All around me darkness,
And I stand in the middle;
My heart is full of the garlands
I weave with flowers of light.
With brightness all round me
I stand in the middle;
My mind envisions the darkness
Of a million Amavasyas.
Standing at the bottom of the valley
I look up at the heavens above
And reckon that I live
On par with the lofty Pole star.
Sitting on the peak of the mountain,
I watch the universe around;
And imagine that I am falling down
The deep crevice of the netherworld.
This darkness and this light,
These peaks and these valleys,
I strangely entwine
Into the fabric of my life.
Translation made by me on 13 June 2017 from Telugu Original of the inspiring poem by C Narayana Reddy
A lot of the astronomical knowledge goes all the way back to the Vedic literature to the Samhitas and the Brahmanas. Do you think that Space is divine? Space is God’s presence in the world. In a way, Space is God?
The Vedic literature certainly embodies an excellent knowledge base. While I have a broad idea of their all-encompassing coverage, I did not have the opportunity to read and assimilate them in detail. As far as the concept of all pervading God, and the divinity of space; I agree with the idea of divinity of everything that exists, in all the levels of the macrocosm and the microcosm.
I am sceptical that the Pakistani political leadership has had a change of heart regarding its relations with India, says Prof. Sumit Ganguly in an interview with Asian Lite’s Abhish K. Bose
Sumit Ganguly is a Distinguished Professor of Political Science and holds the Tagore Chair in Indian Cultures and Civilizations at Indiana University, Bloomington. He is a member of the Council on Foreign Relations, a Fellow of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences and a Visiting Fellow at the Hoover Institution, Stanford University. He is the co-editor (with Eswaran Sridharan) of the forthcoming Oxford Handbook of Indian Politics. An author of a number of books on South Asia, Prof Ganguly is widely considered as an expert on South Asia. Asian Lite’s Abhish K. Bose asks Prof Ganguly some pertinent questions on the crisis being faced by Pakistan.
Abhish K. Bose: While Pakistan is confronting a rare economic crisis, one of their longstanding strategic partners, the U.S., is doing nothing substantial to bail out that country, which is facing its own share of domestic headaches. Does it indicate a significant shift in geo-political perceptions and priorities on the part of the US? If yes, why? What added bearing will this have on Indo-US relations?
Sumit Ganguly: The US, at the moment, is preoccupied with the war in Ukraine, the issues it faces with the PRC in Asia and beyond and with a range of domestic issues. Under these circumstances, Pakistan’s fate is a relatively low priority for the United States. Nevertheless, there are some in the US Department of State who are trying to keep the relationship alive in the forlorn hope that they can elicit some form of counterterrorism cooperation from Pakistan. This, in part, explains the recent decision to upgrade its fleet of F-16s. Ironically, Pakistan is paying about $400 million for these upgrades at a time when it is faced with near bankruptcy.
Abhish K. Bose: Pakistan is indebted foremost to the Chinese banks. Why doesn’t China intervene to avert a collapse? Is Pakistan going the Sri Lanka way? If, like in India, Pakistan had a stable democratic mode of governance, could the outcome have been different to what it is today? Or, a theocratic State, irrespective of the role of the army, unviable in the long-term?
Sumit Ganguly: To begin with, Pakistan is not a theocratic state. A theocracy is a state that is ruled by clerics. It is, however, a state based on religion. That being said, even if both India and Pakistan were robust democracies it is not entirely clear that they could resolve their differences amicably. From its founding Pakistan has had an irredentist claim to Kashmir. This claim has not been abandoned regardless of which government has come to power. Of course, had democracy been consolidated in Pakistan, one wonders if a different outcome might have obtained.
Abhish K. Bose: What is the role that patronising and funding militancy and cross-border terrorism has played in causing the present disarray in Pakistan? What, if any, are the lessons that countries like India can learn from the plight of Pakistan?
Sumit Ganguly: India learnt its lesson from the Sri Lankan fiasco. After all, it is well known that RAW supported and trained the LTTE. This lead to a serious, eventual blowback. Yes, Pakistan’s dalliance with a range of irregular forces and terrorists have come to haunt it. Yet, far too many Pakistanis have deluded themselves into believing that that they are victims of terrorism.
Abhish K. Bose: The recent statement of Pakistan PM Shehbaz Sharif that after three wars with India Pakistan has become sensible enough to want to live in peace with India. Is a civilian government in Pakistan free enough from the control of its army to choose the path of peace with its neighbours? Will religious extremists in that country tolerate such an option? If this change in perception is due to an economic crisis, will it not revert to the old mode of antagonism when the crisis blows over? Or, do you think there is a genuine change in perception and priorities?
Sumit Ganguly: I am quite skeptical that the Pakistani political leadership has had a change of heart. Even if they have it is far from clear to me that they have the requisite ability to dramatically change course when it comes to relations with India. The military still remains primus inter pares and controls the relationship with India. Furthermore, distrust and hatred of India has become woven into Pakistan’s political culture. More to the point, the rise of Hindu nationalism in India is adding fuel to the fire.
Abhish K. Bose: To what extent, do you think, has the Russia – Ukraine war accelerated the economic downslide of Pakistan, already strained by the pandemic-induced slowdown?
Sumit Ganguly: I think that the war has exacerbated matters. However, the problems were of long standing and indeed structural.
Abhish K. Bose: How significant is the role of Pakistan in furthering the geo-political roadmap of China? China has invested hugely in Pak as part of the belt and road project. What will be the role donned by Pakistan if and when China emerges as a major global player?
Sumit Ganguly: The Sino-Pakistani nexus was forged after the 1962 war. For both countries, this is one of the few alliances that has endured. China’s commitment to the BRI is both designed to serve its own parochial, material interests while making Pakistan even more dependent on the PRC.
Abhish K. Bose: Taking into account the border disputes India had with China and Pakistan, and China creating periodic tensions in the border, what would be most prudent strategy for India to fend off these adversaries? What should be thrust areas?
Sumit Ganguly: India has to pursue two simultaneous strategies. First, it needs to bolster its domestic military capabilities. Second, it needs to strengthen its security partnership with the United States. For the foreseeable future it will lack the necessary wherewithal to cope with the threat from the PRC.
Border Security Force exchange sweets with Pakistan Rangers at JCP Attari on India’s 73rd Republic Day, in Amritsar on January 26, 2022. (Photo Pawan Sharma_IANS)
Abhish K. Bose: The Pakistan PM has recently demanded the mediation of UAE in the Kashmir issue. Do you think India will take kindly to internationalising the Kashmir issue? Wouldn’t it serve the political interests of the BJP better to keep the Kashmir pot stirring?
Sumit Ganguly: India has never taken kindly to any effort to internationalize the Kashmir issue. This government will prove no exception to the rule. Actually, apart from its drastic decision to dispense with Article 370 which had conferred a special status on the state of Jammu and Kashmir the BJP does not have any compelling reason to stir the pot in Kashmir. All they want is political quiescence.
In an extensive interview with Asian Lite’s Abhish K Bose, Prof. Gopalji Malviya discusses the various dimensions and stakeholders involved in the ongoing tension in between India and China.
Prof. Gopalji Malviya was born and had early school and college education at Allahabad. He completed his Post Graduation in Defence and Strategic Studies from Allahabad University. Dr. Malviya earned his Doctorate from University of Madras. His doctoral thesis was on Chinese Strategic Threat to India’s National Security. Dr. Malviya has authored/edited over a dozen books and over forty articles on international relations and national security issues in leading national and international publications. He has visited number of countries in connection with seminar/conferences to USA, Austria, Sri Lanka, Pakistan and Nepal.
He also has been awarded Major Research Projects from University Grants Commission on Non-Traditional Threats to India’s Maritime Security and DRDO Project on India’s National Security Threat Assessment. He has guided 18 Doctoral Scholars that includes the high profile Officers from the Tri-services of Indian military. Dr. Malviya was Chairman of University Inspection Commission and Research Advisor to the Defence Services Staff College Wellington, and National Defence College, New Delhi.
Dr. Malviya has been visiting faculty to NDC, Officers’ Training Academy, College of Naval Warfare, Mumbai, DSSC, Wellington, College of Defence Management, Secunderabad and College of Army warfare, Mhow. He was a member of Academic Council and Senate of the University of Madras, University of Pondicherry, Central University of Tamil Nadu and member of various expert committees at UGC and Ministry of Human Resources and Development. He was also an expert committee member at IGNOU and specializes in India’s National Security, South Asian Peace and Security, Nuclear issues and Legal Dimensions of International Security. He has taught International Relations, National Security, International Law and Indian Military History.
He was a founding member of the Centre for Security analysis, Chennai and Convener of Society for Indian Ocean Studies, Chennai Chapter. Dr. Malviya has 40 years of teaching and research experience & retired as the Professor and Head of the Department of Defence and Strategic Studies, University of Madras in 2012. Later, he also served as Dean, School of National Security Studies at Central University of Jammu. Prof. Malviya has had intense academic interactions with institutes of armed forces over his academic career. In this extensive interview with Asian Lite’s Abhish K Bose, he discusses the various dimensions and stakeholders involved in the ongoing tension in between the two countries.
ABHISH K. BOSE: Why are China and India having border tensions and confrontations ever since their inception? Is it because of their imperial hang-over; China, of the Qing and Indian, of the British? What else could be the reason or reasons?
Prof. Malviya: Tension between India and China is deeply rooted in border dispute since their inception. India and China as sovereign independent states have never made any serious and meaningful attempt to demarcate the borders towards amicable solutions.
Actually it’s not a mere border dispute, it is largely a territorial dispute as China continues to illegally occupy 38000 sq kms of Indian Territory.
Over 3500 kilometres long border that runs through some of the most arid terrain along the Himalayan range known as eastern, central and western sectors of Sino Indian border. The unresolved border and territorial issues are key towards normalization of relations between the two Asian giants. Both the disputants have made claims and counter claims, produced evidence of historical positions including revenue record etc but so far in their various interactions at different levels, they have only ‘Talked’ and not negotiated for its logical conclusions.
There is one major irritant that adds up to tension between the two nations and that is granting political asylum to Dalai Lama in India. Growing India’s proximity to USA adds to another reason. Both countries follow different kinds of ideologies and have different systems of governance. Their strategic perceptions of global and regional issues also differs. Both are searching for great power status in their competitive approach in economy and military. In the emerging international architecture, India and China figure prominently as rising powers. Hence, the continuing tension between the two.
ABHISH K. BOSE: How do you compare the development of the military power of China and India from the 1990s onwards? Currently, the China economy is five times that of India and can afford to spend three times more on its military, whereas in the 1990s the Chinese economy was comparable to that of India and its military was not vastly superior to the Indian. To what extent is the asymmetry of power and economic resources between the two nations responsible for the aggressive posturing on the part of the Chinese?
Prof. Malviya: No doubt China is a large military power and Chinese economy is 5 times bigger than India. China is a large country with vast geographical, natural, economic and human resources. China under authoritarian rule has an ambition to become a world power and it has been constantly working through their efforts through “Four Modernization Program” since 1979. They also began their massive economic reform since then. Chinese have expanded their industrial base with large skilled work force, adopted modern technology particularly in the field of electronics and communications, they have also developed manufacturing hubs in large number of areas, and created a wide range of supply chain with export orientation. They have heavily invested in infrastructure, development and research and development. The pace of these developments has been remarkable and hence the fascinating dividends.
People’s Liberation Army (PLA) (Xinhua_Cheng Min_IANS)
India on the other hand has seen too many hiccups and bottle necks in their economic and industrial expansion program. India’s growth has been slow but steady, in the current scenario, India is a fast growing economy and reached 5th largest economy in the world. India’s vision and commitment towards its goal of ‘Vishwaguru’ seems possible due to its strong and stable political leadership. During and post covid 19 scenario, Chinese economic growth has suffered a lot, their GDP has decreased, exports has also been affected. Currently China is struggling to keep pace with its economy.
Regarding asymmetry in military strength, it is true that China has large military machine and men in uniform. However mere numerical superiority is no indication of a super military power. It is also true that Chinese People’s Liberation Army has large number of naval and air platforms including their large nuclear force as compared to India. But the world has not yet seen Chinese military power in any full scale conventional combat (notwithstanding the 1962 war with India as it was one sided) against strong opponent. Present Indian armed forces are fully modernized, integrated, motivated in their conventional and strategic nuclear format. It would be a mistake to underestimate India’s defense capability and leadership.
ABHISH K. BOSE: What, if any, is the role of the US in keeping the Sino-Indian relationship on the boil?
Prof. Malviya: India and China are rising powers, and enjoyed their strategic autonomy in their regional and global conduct. Both are emerging global players, capable of guiding and protecting their strategic and politico economic interest, hence there is hardly any role for America to fish in the troubled waters of Sino Indian tension. With the rapid changing strategic landscape, it is difficult to predict US role and influence in future however in the current scenario it is insignificant.
ABHISH K. BOSE: Does the tension that prevail between the two countries presage the outbreak of a large-scale conflict between these Asian giants? What are we to make of the increased defence spending by both countries? In the event of an outbreak of war, will it take a nuclear turn?
Prof. Malviya: India and China are clearly set to emerge as great economic and military powers. They also are neighbors who will continue to compete for resources market and influence in Asian region and global stage. It is unlikely that India and China will become mortal enemies again particularly in the current political situation. Hence any large-scale military adventure or conflict is minimal and unlikely.
I don’t see any big jump in their defense spending. Gradual and incremental increase is likely to continue based on their strategic requirement and compulsion. Minor military engagement, border intrusion, temporary encroachment, fist fight and occasional crossing the line by both powers may continue at some point along the border at short intervals. However, any major conventional war is unthinkable and a possible nuclear exchange is highly improbable.
ABHISH K. BOSE: To what extent are domestic compulsions working behind the Chinese strategy to escalate border tensions? The need to divert attention from internal issues especially the slowdown of the Chinese economy post COVID 19 pandemic, for example?
Prof. Malviya: Chinese often take aggressive postures against their perceived adversaries and escalate tension in order to divert their internal socio-political issues. This is a regular strategy pursued at different occasions at different places of their choice. The Chinese tool kit for such event includes aggressive military deployment, border skirmishes, provocative statement and mounting diplomatic pressures, India is no exception.
Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi and Chinese President Xi Jinping during a visit to the UNESCO world heritage site in Mamallapuram, Tamil Nadu.
ABHISH K. BOSE: Pakistan is reportedly teetering on the bridge of an economic collapse and the Chinese do not seem to be particularly keen to bail that country out of its present crisis. Does it signal any shift in the foreign policy of China and what bearing will it have on peace in this region?
PROF Malviya: Pakistan is on the verge of collapse. For decades Pakistan has survived with borrowed economy. Experts for long have been warning it as a ‘failed state’, economic paralysis and civil chaos. Pak as a theocratic state and military domination has not been able to evolve stable democratic culture of governance. Chinese military and economic assistance to Pakistan has been in pipeline for over 3 decades, today Pakistan finds itself totally under debt trap by China. Chinese have been using Pakistan card against India to fulfill their strategic objectives. Pakistan is also being used by China towards its design to encircle India. China has invested heavily in Pakistan to seek politico/ strategic favors from Pakistan. Currently Chinese economy has taken a backseat and hence they may not be in a position to bail out Pakistan.
Also, Chinese are facing various domestic and regional challenges. In such a case I don’t see any major shift towards Pakistan in near future. Currently there is no sign of lasting peace in this region.
ABHISH K. BOSE: What is the significance, specific to the China angle India has to mind, of the neutrality that India has adopted in the Russo-Ukraine conflict? Does India expect Putin to reign in the Chinese? Or is this expectation wholly misplaced? Or, is India trying to leverage this neutrality as a bargaining chip vis-à-vis the US?
Prof. Malviya: India does not expect Russian President Putin to reign in the Chinese, due to its (India’s) independent stand adopted in the Russo-Ukrain conflict. Any such expectation is highly misplaced. India’s assertive diplomacy and political view of ongoing conflict is crystal clear and appreciated even by all including its critics.
Prime Minister Narendra Modi, Russian President Vladimir Putin and Chinese President Xi Jinping. (Photo IANS_PIB)
ABHISH K.BOSE: A permanent solution to the border disputes with China seems impossible in the near future. The Chinese, on their part, are stretching the sites of confrontation into areas where they did not have stakes previously like Galwan. How are we to read this strategy?
Prof. Malviya: Sino Indian border dispute is one of a highly complex issue. Over the period both the disputants have not been able to exercise flexible approach to resolve the knotty issue according to the terms mutually agreed by them. Both the sides have to give up ‘rigidity’ on their respective viewpoints. It also requires ‘Political Will’ from both the countries to find an amicable solution towards delimitation of the boundary. Such possibility seems very remote in the current environment. Both sides have hardliners, in Chinese PLA and also perhaps in Indian foreign establishments. Chinese have been stretching the sites of confrontation in new areas and it seems they will continue to claim areas as per cartographic aggression of their design. It is simple to understand that the Chinese have greater appetite for territories beyond their control. Chinese have also been pursuing aggressive expansionist policy in the land and sea around.
ABHISH K.BOSE: According to Nirupama Rao, the former foreign secretary of India, the border issues between India and China could have been settled, if Nehru had raised them during negotiations over the 1954 Tibet agreement, where it surrendered all its rights in Tibet. By way of quid pro quo India could have demanded the Chinese to settle its claims on the border areas which India did not do. Do you find any merit in this view, especially given that nothing prevents the Chinese from raking up issues as expeditious to them?
Prof. Malviya: Nirupuma Rao is absolutely correct and I agree with her views that Nehru could have exercised the skill of “Political Realism” to deal with China in 1954. Tibet agreement was an Indian surrender to appease China, whereas this could have been used as ‘bargain chip’ for settling the boundary issue.
President Dr. Rajendra Prasad, Vice President Dr. S. Radhakrishnan and Prime Minister
Jawaharlal Nehru with the Chinese Premier at Rashtrapati Bhavan on June 26, 1954.
In fact, later on India has missed three opportunities to settle the dispute with China or at least to read their mind on the issue. Firstly, during Chou En Lai’s visit in 1960 when Nehru was flexible for discussion and inclined to find a solution, but his cabinet colleagues protested against any settlement with China. Secondly, it was Mrs Gandhi who missed the opportunity during 1983 when she ignored Deng Xiaoping’s offer of “Packaged Deal” due to the domestic and political compulsions. Thirdly, Rajiv Gandhi during his visit to China in December 1988 never showed interest to enter into any serious discussion/ negotiation due to his rigid stand of ‘not losing even an inch of territory’ prevented India from responding to Chinese offers.
ABHISH K. BOSE: If you were to evolve a settlement package between the two countries, what would be its salient aspects? Or, do you think that peace will prevail if India is able to maintain balance of terror with the Chinese? Do you see India reaching there in the foreseeable future?
Prof. Malviya: To evolve a settlement package between India and China seems to be a tough task because Chinese practice “win win diplomacy” in their negotiations. Any dispute could be addressed with the pragmatic and flexible approach with some kind of give and take and spirit of mutual accommodation. Indian approach towards an acceptable solution is less than clear, it is not merely a lack of policy or direction but more seriously a lack of perspective. It is apparent that there are divisions among the policy makers at South Block. They have been referred as settlers and non-settlers, Indian ‘hesitation and vacillation’ is responsible for not grasping the opportunities. In the current scenario there is not ‘quick fix’ solution to the long pending issues.
Disengagement process in south of Pangong Lake (File pic)
India has large military machine and man power backed by strategic nuclear force. Indian defence forces are modern and continue to enhance its all-round operational capabilities. Today’s India is not of 1962, and has a major and one of the largest military forces in the world. India needs to keep its nuclear deterrent in place, to survive as an independent player it has to take it very seriously. The projection of its minimum nuclear deterrence needs to have value additions. India is fairly strong in conventional combat, capable to face any challenge or military misadventure from perceived adversaries.
In an extensive interview with Asian Lite’s Abhish K. Bose, Prof. Zamagni discusses the inflation in various European countries and the stagnation in the economy of Europe and world economy after Russia – Ukraine war among other issues.
Stefano Zamagni is Professor of Economics and the former Dean of the Economics faculty at the University of Bologna, and Member of the Board of LUMSA University, Rome. Professor Zamagni is the author of several books including ‘ Macroeconomic Theory’ and Civil Economy and Paradoxes of Growth, both published in 1997. For his academic accomplishments Prof Zamagni has been honoured a number of times. He was named the McDonnel Distinguished Scholar in Helsunki in 1992, and a Paul Harris Fellow by Rotary International in 1995. Professor Zamagni was a member of the Executive Committee of International Economy Association (1989 – 1999), and the Steering Committee of the Pontifical Academy of Social Sciences. Since 1991 he is a member of the Pontifical Council on Justice and Peace. He is a Fellow of the Academy of Sciences of Milan, the Academy of Sciences of Bologna and the Academy of Sciences of Modena.
In an extensive interview with Asian Lite’s Abhish K. Bose he discusses the inflation in various European countries and the stagnation in the economy of Europe and world economy after Russia – Ukraine war among other issues.
ABHISH K BOSE: A number of European countries are encountering mass agitations over inflation, energy costs, demands for better pays and better living conditions. The countries which are facing these protests are England, Germany, Netherlands, Spain, Portugal and France. Is this augur a recession or is this the beginning of the evident signs of a recession?
Prof Zamagni: Stephen Roach, for many years chief economist at Morgan Stanley and now senior lecturer at Yale University, recently forecasted that 2023 will be a negative year for markets, since the world economy will enter into a creeping recession with an high inflation rate that will be much above the interest rates. (E.g. in Europe, the interest rates increased by 2.5% versus an inflation rate of 10%). The fate of the price of energy depends on the vicissitudes of the Ukraine war and so it is not possible to anticipate now what will occur to recession. As suggested by Roach in the just published book, Accidental Conflict (Yale University Press), US and China will not be able in the short run to converge on the design of a new international order. The reason is that in the last four years, the commercial war between the two superpowers changed into a technological war and, after the Russian aggression to Ukraine, into a new cold war.
Russian President Vladimir Putin’s visit to military training ground in Ryazan Region. (Photo: Kremlin)
A message of hope might derive from EU which is on the way to radically transform its strategy towards developing countries. After decades of paternalistic programs, Bruxelles has decided to launch the “Global Gateway” project that will invest 300 Billion of euros for the next five years. The chosen philosophy is the same as that of the Chinese “Belt and road initiative”: the goal is to finance the construction of big infrastructures, with a specific emphasis on clean energy. This is a noteworthy novelty with respect to the policy that UN organizations, such as International Monetary Fund (IMF) and World Bank, unwisely continue to pursue since the Bretton Woods Agreements in 1944. Hyper-globalization crumbled under several contradictions.
First, there was a tension between the gains from specialization and the gains from productive diversification. Second, hyper-globalization worsened distributional problems in many countries. Third, hyper-globalization undermined the accountability of political leaders to their electorates. Calls to revise globalization’s rules were rejected with the argument that globalization was immutable and irresistible – which is not true.
ABHISH K. BOSE: The world economy which was facing a stagnation over the past years got aggravated by the onslaught of the Covid-19 pandemic. As a result of the Russian invasion of Ukraine this economic crisis got exacerbated due to the ruins of the war. Can we expect a resurgence to normalcy in the near future?
Prof Zamagni : Russia’s armed intervention in Ukraine constitutes the tenth major episode of the new era of war, which began with the fall of the Berlin Wall. (There are 169 wars in the world today!) Two elements characterise this new era. The first is that the end of the Cold War diverted the West from its commitments to the poor countries of the South, once the risk of the spread of Sovietism in those countries had disappeared. This helps to understand why the current war is the first war of a global nature and not the first war of a world nature. The difference is clear. Whereas the latter spreads its direct negative consequences only among the belligerent countries, a global war is such when the consequences also affect third countries that have no part in the conflict. Today’s case of food shortages due, not to the physical lack of food, but to the blockade of maritime and land traffic, is just one example, the one that is surprising the public the most. With the blockade of grain and fertilisers, hunger is strategically planned to take hold in other countries, as a weapon to bring about migrations from African countries to the EU, which is also not at war. The same applies to energy.
The second element is that, until recent years, globalisation had never been thought of in situations of war. Indeed, if there was a widespread belief among scholars and opinion-makers, it was that globalisation, even with its aporias, served the cause of peace. The events of the last thirty years have taken it upon themselves to make us realise a truth that should have been seen long ago, namely that globalisation is a positive-sum game that increases both overall income and wealth, but at the same time increases social inequalities both between countries and between social classes within the same country, no matter how rich. Hence the impetus for the outbreak of armed conflicts.
I believe that a proposal for peace negotiations between the two belligerent countries must be put forward, although it might take a long time, given the nature of the measure. The aim of the negotiations cannot be limited to achieving negative peace in the sense of J. Galtung who, as early as 1975, introduced the distinction, which later became famous, between negative peace and positive peace. While the former refers to the absence of direct violence (‘to the cease-fire’, as they say), the latter lays down the conditions for attacking the causes of war. Indeed, only positive peace is sustainable in the perspective of duration. Yet, it is the notion of negative peace that continues to be invoked and sought after. For example, it is to this type of peace that the Global Peace Index (GPI), drawn up by the Institute for Economics and Peace in Sydney, refers as its conceptual basis. This is a serious gap that needs to be filled, and quickly.
The war in Ukraine is likely to evolve into a war of attrition and may end either as a frozen conflict or as a negotiated peace. It has been proven that a negotiated peace is always a superior outcome to the other possibility. And this is true not only for Russia and Ukraine, but also for the US, the EU and the rest of the world. For an accurate demonstration, also of an empirical nature, I refer to C. Blattman, a Canadian economist, and his recent volume Why We Fight. The roots of war and the paths to peace, Wiking, London, 2022.
On the other hand, Russia with its structurally weak economy can hardly expect to be able to compete in international markets. (The Russian economy is less than one twentieth of the US and EU economies combined). This fact helps explain why wars for territorial conquests are so appealing to Moscow’s leadership. But – as history teaches – wars for territory are always lost in the long run; today, even more so than in the past, it is futile to think, that more territory means more power. (This is well understood by China, whose geopolitical strategy is to conquer markets, not territories).
At a time when neoliberal policies are in decline everywhere, geopolitical realism is becoming the dominant ideology. At the heart of realist thinking is the ‘security dilemma’: a situation in which the major powers choose national security as the primary objective of their action. Now, since it is difficult to distinguish between defensive and offensive measures, the attempt of one side to become more secure ends up by increasing the insecurity of the other side, thus triggering countermeasures that feed a real vicious circle. The case of Ukraine is a very clear confirmation of this dilemma. If the Ukrainian affair served to make us realise the extent of the serious vulnerabilities of the current international order and spur us to act accordingly, we could say that this huge tragedy will have served some good purpose. This would open up hope, not only in the future, but also the present, since our actions, in addition to a final goal, also have a meaning and value here and now.
ABHISH K. BOSE: Globalisation has accelerated the impact of any pertinent actions at one part of the globe trickling across the world and consequently the resonance of the Ukraine war will also be expressed throughout the globe. Could you suggest some measures or strategy for other countries to antidote the influence of the war on the global economy so that a vast multitude can be absolved from its disastrous consequences?
Prof Zamagni: The global economy will be shaped in the years ahead by three major trends: the relationship between market and the State will be rebalanced in favour of the State; rebalancing between hyper-globalization and national autonomy in favour of the latter; our ambitions for economic growth will need to be scaled down. If crisis is needed to trigger a fundamental reform of capitalism, might the Ukraine war be the catalyst? If so, what should be done?
(Photo:Instagram/zelenskiy)
i) All countries should renew their commitment to collaboration based on whole-of government and whole-of-society approaches. Since we cannot rule out a return to an old-style dirigisme, it is vital to refer to the principle of subsidiarity. The question is what form this principle will take. It is also time to rethink public-private partnership. The effort to develop a COVID vaccine and how to satisfy the universality condition could become a case in point.
ii) The principle of solidarity is an ancient one; so in which sense can we speak of new forms?
It is a fact the we are facing in this time a silent counterrevolution, that of social de-solidarity that manifest itself in the growing expansion of the many areas of exclusion, that tend to drive the “existential outskirts”, as pope Francis calls them.
What do we find at the roots of such a tendency?
A specific cause has to do with the endemic and systemic increase of structural inequalities, which are advancing faster than the increase of income and wealth. Yet, inequality is not a fate, nor a historical constant. It is not a fate, because it has to do with the institutional structure, that is, with the rules of the economic game that society decides to give itself. We only have to think of institutions like the labor market, the banking system, the welfare system, the tax system, the educational sector.Depending on how they are designed, different consequences affect how income and wealth are distributed among those who have contributed to produce them. Nor are rising inequalities a historical constant, because there have been times when in some countries they diminished. The question then arises: if inequalities do not increase because resources are scarce, or because we do not know kow to act, or because they are due to particular hardships affecting certain categories of persons or certain territories, what are they the ultimate result of?
Workers are seen in a food market in Washington, D.C., the United States. (Photo by Ting Shen/Xinhua/IANS)
iii) We bear responsibility for the ideas upon which institutions, both political and economic,are based. And we bear responsibility for what bears us: nature. Now, it is a well recognized fact that market systems are consistent with many cultures, conceived as tractable patterns of behaviour or, more generally, as organized systems of values. In turn, the type and degree of congruence of market systems with cultures is not without effects on the overally efficiency of the systems themselves: in general, the final outcome of market-coordination will vary from culture to culture. Thus one should expect that a culture of possessive individualism will produce different results from a culture of reciprocity where individuals, although motivated also by self-interest, entertain a sense of solidarity. In the same way, a culture of cooperative competition will certainly produce different results from a culture of positional competition. But cultures are not to be taken for granted. Cultures respond to the investment of resources in cultural patterns, and in many circumstances it may be social beneficial to engage in cultural engineering.
ABHISH K. BOSE: What will be the condition of U.S. in this milieu?
Prof Zamagni : The institutions that have sustained global economic cooperation for the past 75 years are under threat. Despite admonitions that global peace and prosperity are at risk, policymakers in important countries ignored the rules of the multilateral order in recent times and moved down the path of unilateralism and economic sovranism. This is particularly evident in the recent acts of US policy. What is needed now is international statesmanship which presupposes a return to multilateralism. Indeed, to-day’s mess is better understood as a global polycrisis (Adam Tooze), a term indicating that humanity is dealing with a complex knot of distinct but actually entangled crises. As a result, this polycrisis is causing a much greater damage worldwide than the sum of its individual harms.
US President Joe Biden and his Ukrainian counterpart Volodymyr Zelensky during a joint press conference at the White House, Washington, D.C.
Until recently, we have been accostumed to identity and face systemic risks one at a time (such as climate heating, zoonotic diseases, biodiversity decline, worsening economic inequalities, financial instability, ideological extremism, etc.). The point is that these risks, today, reinforce one another, amplifying in severity and accelerating in rate. The result is risk synchronization determining simultaneans crises. That is why we have to adopt a holistic approach to tackle the present global polycrisis. In turn, this implies a new interdisciplinary dialogue between the economic, political, cultural dimensions at stake.
ABHISH K. BOSE: Do you think a radical shift in the economic policies of the countries are essential so as to contain this crisis. In such a scenario what sort of changes in policies that we have to undertake?
Prof Zamagni : One of the biggest challenges that countries face today is the scandalous unequal distributions of opportunities; resources, income and wealth across people. Inclusive prosperity remains elusive. As stated by Princeton Nobelist Angus Deaton, the fundamental problem of present epoch is unfairness, that the great wealth at the top is seen as ill-gotten in a system that gives no chance to many, in spite of the meritocratic rethoric. To address those issues, societies face choices among many different policies and institutional arrangements. Clearly, in order to choose one needs a criterion of choice, which is never value-free. A criterion that has been recently advanced is limitarianism, according to which it is morally undesirable to be superrich. The justification for such a position is that much economic success is based on collective efforts (such as social capital and the collective rules related to property rights) and on the inheritance of past generations.
Whence the unavoidable question how to divide up the benefits from economic cooperation. For ancient Greeks, any citizen who would not care about the surplus wealth – the wealth above the riches line that indicates the point at which additional wealth no longer adds to human flourishing – was called an “idiot”. An authoritative source to grasp the ultimate meaning of the Greek conceptualization is that of Jonas Salk, the inventor of the antipolio vaccine. “I now see – wrote Salk – that the major shift in human evolution is from behaving like an animal struggling to survive to behaving like an animal choosing to evolve. And to evolve, we need a new kind of thinking, a new ethic and a new morality. It will be that of the evolution of everyone rather than the survival of the fittest” (1973). The goal is to move ahead towards a different kind of market economy, one that is inclusive and not exclusive, humane and not de-humanizing, one that cares for the environment, not despoiling it.
A man walking along the Waterloo Bridge backdropped by the Houses of Parliament in London, Britain. (Xinhua/Han Yan/IANS)
ABHISH K. BOSE: What are your anticipation on the developments in world economy in the coming years?
Prof Zamagni : For more than three decades, the global economy-whose beginning can be traced back in November 1975 at the G6 Summit in Rambouillet (Paris) – was defined by unbridled integration and unprecedented interdependence. Neither political spats nor localized conflicts could slow the globalization machinery. Multinational corporations became more multinational. The new scenario emerging from the COVID disaster and above all the Ukraine war, will mark a change from hyperglobalization to slowbalisation. Actually, initial signs of such a change were favoured by the great trade collapse following the 2007-08 global financial crisis and the ensuing fragility of the global value chain
The mechanics of these events are already well known. What is still unknown is the configuration of the slowbalisation process. What we know are the key words of slowbalisation: resilience, robustness, reshoring, friend shoring. But what we do not know yet is how to fill these empty boxes with policy actions. It is very likely that the new globalisation – i.e. slowbalisation –will be selective: an integration among groups of countries connected among them by affinities not only economic, but also political and cultural.
US President Joe Biden with his Chinese counterpart Xi Jinping in Bali, Indonesia (Photo Twitter@SpokespersonCHN)
According to the well-known Global Gaider Model (GGM), productivity growth and its interaction with demographic change are the main drivers of future economic power. Fiscal conditions and automation matters are secondary factors. In this new era of strategic competition, the economy that loses the most may well be China’s. In fact, in recent years, the openness that underpinned globalization has given way to a geopolitically focused, zero-sum mindset. International trade and finance will more and more be shaped by national-security considerations. Export controls, particularly in the high-tech technologies, the blacklisting of companies will become commonplace.
I would like to conclude with the motto of many medieval Academies: “Ubi lux lincet, humanitas surgit” (Where light shines, humanity revives). This is our primary task, today: urgently overcoming the crisis of thought, i.e. of light, that is perversely affecting our societies.
The biggest lessons learned from such kinds of situations are to be cautious, to nurture, and to value life…reports Vishnu Makhijani
Human behaviour is usually oriented to two basic objectives: Comprehending a situation and then predicting the outcome while relying on that comprehension.
“Predicting life has been compelling and a linear thought. It might have been simpler when we would have been productive by adding gains and outcomes. But then, we directed all the thoughts and models towards multiplying the outcomes. The cost of this zest became high, though, we continuously tried to offset that.
“There have been indicators from all around that we must revisit life, which we ignored. Then came Covid-19, an enemy which graphed every thought process mankind possesses, all the reactions we might have and developed an algorithm of its own, It hit us hard, which compels us to think that life is the most valuable thing,” says Vinay Sharma, a Professor in the Department of Management Studies at IIT-Roorkee, the lead author of “Stop Predicting Revisit Life, Lessons from Covid-19” (Bloomsbury).
India and Indians “have fought exceptionally well and we have realized the value of life more than ever. During this war against Covid-19, we have realized the importance of being together, fighting together and caring for each other”, Sharma told in an interview.
We have realised the value of doctors, medical practitioners, all kinds of forces; people who are leading the economy; people who are contributing in the economy; skilled workers in the field of medical sciences; support teams; farmers, people contributing in transporting goods; media personnel, in fact, everyone who has contributed even a little bit in this war, he elaborated.
“More than ever, we have realized the value of leadership at all the levels and the icons who can motivate us, and make us believe that this would pass. Many people have lost their dear ones and those imprints would remain for a long time. Many had to struggle in different ways, but believing in ourselves and in each other and believing in processes related to living a happy and a healthy life is what we believe now,” Sharma maintained.
How has Covid-19 changed our philosophy of life and our understanding of the future?
“Don’t go too far, try to find contentment. Do care for others, do care for nature, care for the environment, believe in the community, believe in society, live for your country. All the fundamentals have re-strengthened themselves. This is evident as people have started choosing the methods and the ways related to the fundamentals of life and values. But we must learn to be more civic,” Sharma said.
Does India need a new comprehensive law to combat a Covid-19 like pandemic in future from the lessons learned?
“In the wake of the serious governance challenges that India faced, the Covid-19 crisis has highlighted the urgent need for a legislative framework in the form of a new national law to combat such a pandemic in future. The legislation should include a legal framework to set up a national crisis communication protocol and a new framework for health governance,” he said.
The absence of a viable national crisis communication protocol aggravated the Covid-19 crisis, especially during the first two waves and has necessitated the need for such a policy at the district, state and national levels to deal with such public health disasters in future, Sharma maintained.
“Also, the pandemic has exposed the weaknesses in the existing public health communication systems and highlighted the urgent need to restructure and reform them to meet the challenge posed by such public health disasters in future. Such a policy response would help strengthen the existing public health communication systems,” he elaborated.
What new measures are needed to augment healthcare facilities, especially in small towns and villages?
“General awareness about health and healthcare, in terms of keeping oneself healthy and to equip people for helping others in cases of situations wherein the participation of large numbers of people is required has to be the first step.
“Inter-connectivity of people with systems and systems with people in terms of provision of healthcare has to be strengthened, as have ambulatory services and a healthcare-related skilled workforce. Most of all, doctors and nursing staff have to be larger in larger numbers, not only looking at the required perspective, but also looking at the numbers that should exist for a large population,” Sharma explained.
The biggest lessons learned from such kinds of situations are to be cautious, to nurture, and to value life.
“Contentment is the key. We must remember our duties. We must remember that our objectives should primarily be to serve our nation, society, elders, and the community, while imbibing healthy living, and by being consistent throughout lives, while caring for the nature, not wasting resources, and not generating waste,” Sharma concluded.
The other co-authors of the book are Rabindranath Bhattacharyya, a Professor of Political Science at the University of Burdwan; Sanjeev Kumar Mahajan, a Professor of Public Administration at Himachal Pradesh University, Shimla; and Himanshu Shekhar Mishra, a Senior Editor with NDTV India.
Young Gia Soni has made major headway in acquiring skills that we all struggle to perfect as grown adults. At 10, she has claimed her place on the pantheon of writers, adult and young with the publication of two books. She received an award for Bright Young Artist (She Inspires) from MPs Bob Blackman and Joy Morrissey at the Houses of Parliament in March 2019. She has been interviewed on leading FM stations including Carla Delaney on Marlow FM.
Besides attending a leading independent school in London, she spends her time swimming, playing with dogs and perfecting her craft. Anandi Iyer talked to the pint-sized wordsmith and spent time getting to know her better. We reproduce the interaction below.
Gia, who are your favourite authors and what kind of books do you enjoy reading?
My favourite authors are JK Rowling and Percy Jackson. I read all the Harry Potter books when I was 7 years old. I am intrigued by fantasy, mystery and magic. These books have all been made into super successful films and I have watched all of them multiple times.
Percy Jackson’s books are all about Greek Mythology and I am obsessed with them.
When you write, what do surround yourself with? Music perhaps?
I love to write in my own quiet reading and writing corner in my room in complete silence and work my way slowly by drafting the theme first and slowly build upon characters and then weave a story together.
What inspired you to write the Mystery of the Magical Sketchpad?
I have been a voracious reader from very beginning as I didn’t have any siblings and both my parents work full time. One day I was checking my mum’s desk and found a poetry book written by her and published by her grandfather. She was just 10 years old, so I was inspired by her to write my own stories. My first book was a compilation of 10 short stories. My mum helped me in typing them out as I was just six and a half and didn’t even know how to use a computer. During the Covid lockdown my mum, dad, maternal grandma (I call her Nanu) encouraged me to work on my second book. That’s when I wrote ‘The Mystery of Magical sketchpad’ and this time I typed it myself. It took me some time, but it was worth it. Moreover, I dedicated this book to my Nanu as she is my best friend, and it was my 70th birthday gift to her.
My teachers at the Haberdashers’ Girls school have always encouraged me immensely as well. I owe them big time for teaching me the power of words.
My mum and me always get tips from Rahul uncle (Asian Lite Associate Editor, Rahul Laud) on the nuances of publishing.
4. What are your aspirations? I know you have mentioned horses and a stable. Have you added any new dreams to your wish list?
Yes, I love Horse riding and want to own a stable someday. I also swim for the Barnet Copthall swimming club and want to, someday, win a medal for Great Britain!
You are amazing Gia; can you give us and our young readers some advice on how to follow our dreams?
I read in an article somewhere that human beings have 70,000 thoughts every day. Those are a lot of thoughts! I would like to believe that if we can even tap into one single thought, we can create magic. From a thought to an idea to a full-fledged story, we all have the power to weave stories and spin magic. If you put your heart and soul into it, nothing is impossible. I would like to say to children my age: don’t get scared to dream BIG!
(Anandi Iyer is a content specialist, marketing communications and fintech entrepreneur based in Singapore. Her passions include writing, art, music and languages. She can be reached at asiyer@yahoo.com)
Goa will take a holistic approach to promote key sectors and provide incentives to investors in these sectors. The state has always been open to dialogue about customising an incentives package based on the unique requirements of an investor. Ms. Swetika Sachan, IAS, Director, Directorate of Industries Trade & Commerce and CEO of Goa Investment Promotion and Facilitation Board talks to Asian Lite
Ms. Swetika Sachan, IAS, CEO. Goa Investment Promotion and Facilitation Board: Tourism is the biggest sector in Goa and rightly so. It is something we are proud of and will showcase at the Expo. At the same time, Goa has a lot more to offer and we want to utilise the Expo to display that too. Our focus sectors are: Agro and food processing; IT and IT enabled services; Knowledge-based industry; Light engineering and Niche tourism like medical and luxury tourism
Ms. Swetika Sachan
ASIAN LITE: How do you think Dubai Expo 2020 will help boost Goa’s plans to attract overseas investments to the state across sectors, besides tourism?
SWETIKA SACHAN: Goa is best known as a tourist destination. At the Expo, the state pavilion will showcase various other strengths of Goa alongside its tourist appeal. Sectors such as IT and IT-enabled services, light engineering, agro and food processing are some of the prime areas where the state encourages investment. In our interactions with investors, we would like to highlight the support that the government is willing to provide to give a boost to these industries and other focus sectors of the state.
ASIAN LITE: Would you be looking to have long term trade deals/ agreements with countries in certain focus areas like health, education, SME’s, Aerospace & Defence, Infrastructure?
SWETIKA SACHAN: Absolutely yes. We want to create sustainable growth in the state and such agreements and deals will help the state to work with a long-term vision in mind. With regards to policy making also, it helps to have such agreements in place so that the development can happen on an ongoing basis.
ASIAN LITE: Besides the facilities and incentives, the new Investment Policy of Goa offers to the global investors which every state offers, what different/ unique has Goa got to offer in order to have an edge over others?
SWETIKA SACHAN: Goa is in the process of drafting its new and updated Investment Policy. We will take a holistic approach in this policy to promote our priority sectors and provide incentives to those seeking to invest in these sectors. Besides that, the state has always been open to dialogue about customising an incentives package based on the unique requirements of an investor. This is what we intend to do in Dubai also. We would like to speak with potential investors, understand their needs and challenges and offer solutions that work for them. By extension, we also want the investors to see Goa’s uniqueness and understand the priorities of the state.
ASIAN LITE: Do you have a roadmap to follow-up on the investment interests generated at the EXPO and bring them to ground level? Will you also be making local employment a part of the agreements?
SWETIKA SACHAN: Local employment and preservation of Goa’s beautiful ecosystem are the main objectives of the state when evaluating investment proposals. This will be at the foundation of every discussion we have in Dubai. Goan youth is skilled and talented, and we want to bring the right opportunities in the state for their benefit, such as agro and food processing and technical sectors such as IT, FinTech, to name a few.
The roadmap is very simple, we want to talk to investors and find those who share the same motivations as the government to bring about responsible development in the state. State leadership will helm these discussions and myself and my team will be there along the way to provide necessary support.
ASIAN LITE: Goa is largely known for its tourism worldwide. What plans have you to position the state as an investment destination for other sectors also besides EXPO DUBAI 2020?
SWETIKA SACHAN: Tourism is the biggest sector in Goa and rightly so. It is something we are proud of and will showcase at the Expo. At the same time, Goa has a lot more to offer and we want to utilise the Expo to display that too. Our focus sectors are:
Agro and food processing
IT and IT enabled services
Knowledge based industry
Light engineering
Niche tourism like medical and luxury tourism
ASIAN LITE: India is targeting to become $5 trillion economy by 2025. What do you think will be the pie of Goa in the overall contribution of states?
SWETIKA SACHAN: Goa is a leading contributor in terms of the SGDP and has demonstrated continuous growth rate of the same. As our connectivity with the world and rest of the country increases, tourism is expected to grow too. We have a new international airport underway and an expansive network of highways under construction. Besides this, the state is also encouraging investments in the focus sectors as mentioned earlier. Altogether, it is safe to say that Goa’s share of the pie will be significant and will continue to grow.
